Connecting to Your Animal Self Through Fly Fishing, with April Vokey

April Vokey Ep Draft

[00:00:00]

April: there's this waterfall called Grantham Falls. And so my sister and I, we get locked in with the evacuation

so we hike up to Grantham Falls and of course there's nobody there. So why wouldn't we do what every young group of girls would do? We get butt ass naked and we get into the base of Grantham Falls and it's like in the movies where it's like, oh, feel the wind in my face. And then all of a sudden I'm like, yeah, that's 'cause you know, I can hear the waterfall boop, but I'm going, that's a lot of extra wind and a lot of extra, what the hell?

I turn around there's a helicopter hovering there. It was the, um, the firefighters with the, the helicopters with the water. And they're sitting there, we got these two naked nymphs. I we're trying to just cover absolutely everything and they're just sitting there still. Can you imagine

Paddy: my God.

April: water?

It looked like there were four of them. So if you're listening and you were one of those firefighters first, don't tell anyone what you saw, but then please let me know that you were one of those guys. 'cause we talk about it all the time. And they just, they just sat there hovering, [00:01:00] staring, watching us fall over ourselves.

Paddy: Oh my God.

April: was a good summer. It was a good summer.

Paddy: Yeah. It sounds like it was a great summer for the firefighters.

April: Exactly.

Paddy: MUSIC

PADDYO VO:

My mom jokes that my grandpa never met a stranger, because he instantly made friends. My favorite example of this is the time my mom was at an anti war protest in downtown Chicago —this was the end of the 60s after all—and she brought a few fuzzy faced hippies home for some refreshments and to antagonize her straight-laced parents. Story goes that ole Grandpa walks onto the porch and starts straight in with the “Hi, I’m Chuck. What’s your name? Where ya from?” Sure enough, before the fuzzy faced hippies can even begin to razz my Grandpa, he goes, “Wait one second…are you Bill Johnson’s nephew, from Oklahoma?!” And my Grandpa ends up better friends with these guys [00:02:00] than mom did!

My Grandpa just had a way with folks. Big guy, big laugh, big smile, always welcoming and disarming. I like to think that rubbed off on me, and it’s part of how I became a professional chitchatter. I treat strangers like friends.

And, this was probably a little naive of me, but I kinda thought I was pretty good at it. I mean, to be honest, I thought I was REALLY good at it. And then I sat down with the fly fishing phenom and host of the Anchored podcast, April Vokey.

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To understand April’s gift of gab, you first have to understand how she fell in love with fishing. Growing up in the suburbs of Vancouver, she started as a toddler and was … ahem … hooked immediately. As soon as she had an allowance, she spent it on lures and gear, obsessively organizing and reorganizing [00:03:00] her tackle box during family movie nights. Getting more adventurous in her teens, April started to follow the migration of salmon and steelhead in the rivers along the British Columbia coast. That’s where she met her first fishing pal, a kindly older chap who was a gear fisher—meaning he used tackle and bait and a rod with a reel. He gifted April a fly rod that he never used, and fly fishing’s intoxicating, exaserbating combination of challenge and beauty completely changed the course of her life.

April guided in her 20s before starting her own guide service, Fly Gal Ventures, in 2007. Her goal of creating a place where female anglers were educated and encouraged in a non-intimidating environment was almost derailed a year later when April was nearly killed by a drunk driver. The long recovery and rehabilitation—both physical and mental—only sharpened her focus on the things that really [00:04:00] mattered. She sold off nearly everything she owned while she couldn’t work, and was back at Fly Gal as soon as she could walk again.

Since then, April has become a fixture on the fishing internet and TV, and the Anchored podcast has grown into an online community and education platform for fly fishing, hunting, foraging, and homesteading.

The experiences and insights April’s gained through all this pour out of her like a joyous river breaching a beaver dam. It’s not often I sit back in a conversation and think, “Good God, this person can talk!” But just as impressive to me is how quickly April's able to connect with you—she has a curiosity and sincerity that disarms, and she tackles unexpected and even uncomfortable topics with a candor and sense of humor that’s irresistible --- Not unlike my dear old Grandpa...but even Grandpa couldn’t weave a story about helicopter-interrupted skinny [00:05:00] dipping into a detailed description of how king salmon die, alongside an incisive takedown of fly fishing bros and then throw in some wisdom about the intersection of menstruation and adventure to boot. Buckle up people, this conversation is wild.

MUSIC

First things first, burnt toast. What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment? Outside?

April: Um, The most humbling is actually a really, it's kind of boring, but we recently filmed this piece in Canada, over the fall during steelhead season. And I worked so hard. I mean, you know what it's like when the cameras are on, for six, six days, just desperately like, please show that I know what I'm doing and show like, let me land a fish

Paddy: Let me look.

Cool. Let me look. Cool. Let me

April: please, I just Exactly right.

We got fish, but they were all pretty little, but the point was, wanted to produce this film to showcase my best friend, Adrian Kamo, who's this badass fly fisherman.

And We've been best friends for like 23 years she only had a half a day. She goes out, she makes maybe 25 casts and lands a 40 incher. It was [00:06:00] just the most humbling, I mean that's what we all said, including Adrian Ev. Every one of us was in shock, but like how does that look?

You spend six days with a camera crew trying to look cool and then she makes 20 casts and she's like 40 incher, yahoo!.

Paddy: Yeah. Well, Honestly, to tell you the truth, it's kind of Nice. Is that the right word to hear that even you get skunked

April: Oh yeah, all the

Paddy: I After researching you, I kind of thought it was like she just probably whistles and all these fish show up.

April: Oh, I wish. Yeah, just add water and everything will appear.

Paddy: All right, let's get into this.

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There's this saying that I love that the two biggest liars in the world. Our meteorologists and fishers.

I love that anglers can spin a yarn and often that yarn is not necessarily firmly tied to reality. So with that in mind, what is your best fishing Tall tale?

April: Oh, see, now here's where we are gonna agree to disagree. I [00:07:00] think

Paddy: Okay.

April: Fishermen are liars, fisher women,

Paddy: This is, I love

it. Bring it. Yes,, that's what we're here

April: I don't think we are, I don't think I, I'd have a tall, tale about anything I've noticed specifically that, with men, I love men a lot.  we won't even talk about men calculating inches 'cause we all know where that leads.

Paddy: Heyooo

April: am just saying there is a thing where the, like I have, I was beside you. I know for sure that that fish was not that big. Or I know. Let's talk poundage. Ooh, let's not talk poundage. See what happens. My brain just cannot help itself when they'll, they'll be like, oh, it's a, it's a seven pound fish. Or you know, or I'll say it's a seven pound fish and they're like, oh, I caught a 15 pounder and you're going, but did you really?

'cause I was there and, but I, I've just learned over the years with clients, if they say it's 20 pounds, sure it's 20 pounds, but it's, it's not, it is, that was a 15 pound fish every day of the week, which is an amazing fish. But you and I are gonna have to disagree on the whole like inch poundage thing, but that's a tail as old as time.

Paddy: I like your [00:08:00] style.

April: but on the lower Dean River. So I used to manage this lodge. I guided for a decade for steelhead.

We used to close the dean and my brother-in-law would and I, we were the guides there.

We'd stay on and one year there was this massive fire and they shut the entire, area down and the firefighters, said, look, we know you guys will be fine. 'cause obviously you know how to. Catch and kill your own food.

And they said, we can't, we can't, we don't know when we can get you guys out, but if you wanna stay, you can stay. So we stayed on and it was the most incredible summer of my life and I'll stand by that. all we had to do is just not get trapped by fires and catch fish.

And anyway, so my brother-in-law, Stevie hooks into probably a 10 pound steelhead and I'm downstream of him. And I just remember it was like slow motion. She's running and, and I'm telling you this 'cause I just wanna give you some perspective on their, power. This is a 10 pounders, not that big.

She's running downstream. She launches, and full on body slams me to the point where I had an complete like a c shape on my weighters of head body tail. knock knocks me over a 10 pound [00:09:00] steelhead.

So imagine, imagine one, three and a half times that size. They're, he, they're amazing.

Paddy: Stories like this. You don't need tall tales. These are, These are,

April: they are ridiculous. And that same trip. And then I, I'll let you talk, I promise I'll give the mic back, but

Paddy: This is the best. Yeah. I don't really have that many. Lemme tell you about this hippopotamus I once got on the dean, it was incredible.

April: But that, that same trip, there's this, there's this waterfall called Grantham Falls. it pours down and into the ocean. And so my sister and I,

we hike up to Grantham Falls and of course there's nobody there. So why wouldn't we do what every young group of girls would do? We get butt ass naked and we get into the base of Grantham Falls and it's like in the movies where it's like, oh, feel the wind in my face. And then all of a sudden I'm like, yeah, that's 'cause you know, I can hear the waterfall boop, but I'm going, that's a lot of extra wind and a lot of extra, what the hell?

I turn around there's a helicopter hovering there. [00:10:00] It was the, um, the firefighters with the, the helicopters with the water. And they're sitting there, we got these two naked nymphs. I we're trying to just cover absolutely everything and they're just sitting there still. Can you imagine

Paddy: my God.

April: water?

And you.

Paddy: This is like the sirens in like a Greek tragedy comedy and like, here are these firefighters

April: it looked like there were four of them. So if you're listening and you were one of those firefighters first, don't tell anyone what you saw, but then please let me know that you were one of those guys. 'cause we talk about it all the time. And they just, they just sat there hovering, staring, watching us fall over ourselves.

Paddy: Oh my God.

April: was a good summer. It was a good summer.

Paddy: Yeah. It sounds like it was a great summer for the firefighters.

April: Exactly.

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Paddy: Water has been a constant in your life since you were a

kid. Are there any experiences that you've had being near or in the water that helped you understand something about yourself as a kid that still holds true

April: Mm, mm-hmm. That's a really good question actually. Thank you for [00:11:00] that. Yeah. I, it was never fish that got me into fishing. It was always the water that got me into fishing. You know, being a little kid, standing on bridges, looking down, trying, trying to see what you could find. I just always felt, like so many of us do, just a connection to moving water.

I don't have the same thing with, salt water. As I do with, with moving water. I don't know if it's that it, that it's just constantly regenerative. or if it's that it, it it's, reliable or that it's got its seasons.

Paddy: Do you remember the moment when you knew that fishing was gonna be your thing for

life?

April: 100 percent

I was a girl guide. I did three years of brownies, three years of, 'cause there were no sparks at the time. Three years of brownies, three years girl guides, three years pathfinders.

Then it was a junior leader. And now I'm 4 43 years old and I'm still a leader. And my daughter's a girl guide. We went to on a, salmon hatchery trip and I was able to start up piecing together how salmon migration worked because it was one of Our badges. then when mom and dad brought us to the river, there was this big rotted week, say Chinook Americans, [00:12:00] say king salmon, or I'm sorry, not rotted, big dead, uh, king salmon. And it was, it was completely intact, which is strange. They don't usually die like that. They usually, you know, decay.

But, uh, it must have bumped its head, which is a thing Chinook salmon or big salmon, if they can't make a runner, if they. Uh, make it over a barrier or a waterfall. They can accidentally bash their heads and die naturally that way. Um, which is disappointing. But it was this beautiful chrome fish, and mom and dad explained the migration, which made sense 'cause of our outing with girl guides.

And then the math started. So I'm on the river, the river's 15 feet wide, salmon's 20 pounds that fish has to get through here, but I can cast a rod you know, 20 feet. So why can't I intercept that fish? So all the math started mathing, and that was when the challenge kicked in because yeah, you're like, well, the river's not that big.

If it's an ocean and you have to catch that fish, that's really intimidating. But it's only from here to there. So if my line continuously goes across the path of a fish, there is a chance that that big salmon could see it. So you're saying there's a chance. [00:13:00] So that was kind of what it all started.

Paddy: Well, what kind of a kid were you? You know, 'cause I think a lot of us find the community we were always looking for when we find the outdoor

community. I mean, I know that is very true for

April: Yep.

Paddy: typically, it doesn't matter really what sport or passion that you're into, right?

We're all a colorful cast of characters. Were a bunch of weirdos that do weird pursuits. Would you describe yourself as kind of like a misfit or slightly left of center type kid?

April: so like all of us, there's phases, right? So you're a kid then, you're a teenager or pre-teen? Teen. Uh, I would, I was very much an introvert as a kid.

Paddy: Uh,

April: My sister was an extrovert I was very quiet and cerebral, as an adult.

I'm also still very much an introvert. I've, I've gone back, I'd say 95% of my day is quite quiet and, and also quite cerebral. But yeah, as a, as a kid, I was very, not withdrawn, but I was always, my brain was always, puzzled. I guess I was always just enticed by all puzzles.

Whether it was an instrument or a, an [00:14:00] actual jigsaw puzzle or a fishing, which is the ultimate puzzle. My brain, I was just always trying to figure out how to make it work.

Paddy: You know, fishing very often, if not 90% of the time is solitary.

You know? Was that the thing that appealed to you? Because it's, it's pretty well documented that you. We were obsessed with fishing from an early age.

You know, you, when you were a little kid, you meticulously tended to your tackle box and your lures of baits and your teens. You were constantly chasing down salmon and steelhead in the rivers along the coastline of British Columbia. Soon thereafter, a gear fishing pal of yours gifted you an old, unused fly rod, and that totally grabs a hold of you and completely directs the rest of your life.

But what about like your friend group growing

up, were you fishing with a bunch of pals or were you the silent loner casting the shadows?

April: I love it both actually. So, so yes, Is the answer to all of that, I guess. So I was, I was an introvert as a [00:15:00] kid. I loved fishing. When my girlfriends would go, you know, you're 13 years old, eighth grade, they'd go to the mall, but beside the mall was a tackle shop. And so, because I loved my Brown Plano tackle box, and that's what I would do at night as a family.

We'd watch movies. And I would sit there and I would always, constantly, I would gut the box, reload the box, gut the box, reload the box. But to really be able to feel good about it, you need to have two or three new lures.

So I would go and get some more gear from, from the tackle shop next to the mall, and then on Friday night, get the box, reload the box. And I had warned my parents when I can drive, I will be doing, 'cause my parents don't fish. We did a lot of stuff outside and mom and dad were great and that they knew we'd love fishing and, and so we would go and troll worms or whatnot they were very supportive.

But when I got my driver's license, that was it for me. And so I was by my be because I was so, social in school. Going fishing was my break, right? So at school I was, I was very, I was one of the, those kids, you know, I, I took pride in getting along with everybody and I liked people, but again, as many introverts will know, there comes a time in your [00:16:00] day when you can't say one other, like, you have to walk away.

You, you can't, it

Paddy: That social battery is

April: completely tapped

Paddy: seek solitude to recharge

April: a hundred percent. You can't smile anymore. You don't wanna see a single person. You just almost need to run. So I would run to the river, and because I was a good student, my, the deal was if I had straight A's or if I was on the, a honor roll. Um, I didn't have to go to school all the time, so I didn't

Paddy: What do you mean you didn't have to go.

to school? This is something your parents

told you. They were like, if you can get straight A's, you can play hooky and go fishing?

April: Yeah. Well, yeah, because

Paddy: This is some serious Huckleberry Finn

stuff right now. This

April: well, it wasn't supposed to start as fishing. It was supposed to be, you can work the extra job if you are on the straight honor roll. We don't care what if, what your attendance is. ' cause they weren't docking points for attendance. And I had the lead in the school musical for, the three years that I was there, the 10, 11 grades, 10, 11, 12.

So they couldn't expel me.. Everyone was stuck 'cause they needed me in, in the musical, [00:17:00] it's called strategy, my friend. Yeah.

Paddy: Well Played. Well

played.

April: and dad really didn't give a shit. It provided I was bringing in decent grades and I wasn't hurting people. They didn't care what I was doing. So it started as, well, I'll, I'll work an extra job then, because I couldn't understand why I was spending all the extra time in school when I could be making money or doing something that made sense.

So then eventually though, I, I just started going fishing and they didn't care because we'd already had this kind of routine. So I was by myself out there fishing and kept running into this man who was in his sixties at the time. and he was like, I see you out here all the time and you're by yourself.

And, you know, and he was offering to fish with me, which of course was a massive red flag. And the answer was a solid no. and then until it wasn't, and one day I kind of said, sure. And so fished with Dave Puffer and, um, and my folks were not completely irresponsible. So one day they followed me out to the river and, um, they, parked the car across and just watched to see if there was any weird behavior and there wasn't they.

Dave was great and, um, that was my first fishing [00:18:00] buddy.

Paddy: Because you're

April: PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: This fishing buddy of yours, he had the fly fish rod, like completely unused, dusty on the corner of his like tackle room.

And he was like, here, you can just have

this. And then he also gifts you actual VHS tapes, instructional

tapes, which you watch

obsessively. you are a hundred percent self-taught on fly fishing. Other than these tapes, there was no like. Fly fishing

guru that you followed on river

April: Definitely not on river. And, and remember this is all way before internet. so it's not like you're watching YouTube videos. The VHS tapes were incredibly helpful. , When you're trying to watch a VHS tape to fly tie, if you miss a step, you have, we didn't have a remote for our VCR, so I'd have to get up.

And then walk over to the VCR pause, or like unpause, run back and try to, to capture. So the, the VHS tapes were great for fly casting, not so much for fly tying, but I'd sit on the edge of the bed and I'd do this thing that I [00:19:00] now know is called pantomime casting. So I would watch what they're doing and I would try to follow along with my hands.

and that creates muscle memory. A lot of people, the first thing they do is they get their pre strung rod and they go fishing. Or worse, they go to the water to learn how to cast. And that's a horrible idea.

Paddy: talking about you're, this is what I did.

April: way too many distractions. It's incredible out there. It's, it's too distracting.

Paddy: Trying to learn nymphing thing,

which the most frustrating. It's just a big old booger on the end, like this winding thing that flips and flaps around. is just, oh

April: yeah, no. Anything with a hook. Do not put a hook on the end of your line when you're learning. Put a piece of yarn on.

Paddy: where were you a handful of years ago?

April: Yeah, go to a backyard, sit on the edge of your bed. Yeah, so Dave, Dave really, he really helped me get into it. But he, but the problem was, is at, at some point, I mean, he was older, so when salmon were done, their run, Dave went home and I was just getting started.

So Salmon really finished around the end of November in the northern hemisphere, or you know, specifically in BC I guess everywhere up there. And then [00:20:00] Steelheads start to enter in December. So a lot of the quote unquote meat anglers go home. And then the really, truly hardcore anglers come out for steelhead from December till April, for what's called a winter steelhead.

And so winter steelheading is just a whole different world. So Dave went in and, and I had myself, um, I had taken a. Casting workshop but no, there was definitely no on River gurus. And at the time it was really hard to get anybody in person because there were no other, I, I mean, I hadn't met Adrian.

I met Adrian I think when I was 22 So she was a savior because we were able to team up and obviously that's to this day, but nobody would fish with me because nobody wanted to be the person who appeared to be hitting on the new girl or on the girl who was on the river all the time.

Paddy: Uh,

April: So even

Paddy: that a difficult thing to try to navigate

April: um, I didn't know a lot of the stories came later where they'd be like, yeah, we knew, or I knew and wanted to help you, but, or I knew and I,

Paddy: I didn't want the guys at the fly shop or the [00:21:00] bar later to be like, the only reason that you're talking to that

gal is because you're trying to go out on a date

April: and I found, or, you know, that you're married or that it was weird. 'cause I'm a young woman in your, in your sixties and, and the most common thing that I, I've heard, and now that I know the men in the fishing industry, I, this is, it totally checks out. everybody thought that everybody else was helping me, so nobody wanted to help me.

Yeah. It happens.

Paddy: that's so,

April: it's like happens to hot girls to be like, oh, I thought everyone, everyone thinks that everyone's hitting on the hot girl. So no one hits on the hot girl. It happens all the time.

Paddy: mm So then what, what was the moment on the river where you're like, oh, damn, I got this thing,

April: , It didn't just happen overnight. It's, it, it's frustrating. I want people to know that it, it is frustrating the first second. It's frustrating for a long time, but when you catch your, your first fishing solo, especially catching my first steelhead solo, that was, I've got this.

I really saw a parallel. I, I really found myself in those steelhead. I was young and I was a little trouble, you know, regular, troubled teen story. I was [00:22:00] finding who I was and, and those steelhead as they were finding their way home upstream. I always kind of, I was quite romantic and I always found myself in my brain.

I was like, we're the same. You're finding yourself upstream. I'm finding myself upstream. Let's do this together. We'll find ourselves together.

And I am who I am today because of it.

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Paddy: On this show we almost exclusively talk about the positive impacts of the outdoors and the lives of our guests, but that is not solely the effects of our experiences outside of lot. A lot of the times our fun or our connection or both can be disrupted by forces outside of us.

And you said that you thought the fishermen in the community were all quote dickheads before you started your podcast. Can you explain to me what you

April: Did I say?

Paddy: led you to feel

April: Did I say that? Did I say that somewhere?

Paddy: Yeah,

April: All fishermen are dickheads.

Oh, I know what I think. I, I thought all fly fishermen were dickheads. I had thought that, um, when I was a gear fisher, because I [00:23:00] was by myself I would tuck my hair up in a hat and try to pretend to be a boy. And I remember I was gear fishing and these fly fishermen came up and fly fishermen have got a bit of a reputation for being dickhead.

And I had heard them behind me and they're like, oh, that guy's ruined the pool already. He is fishing his bait, dirty bait fishermen, and I just remember thinking, I'll never be a fly fisherman. They're all dickhead. And, um, so, I did think all fly fishermen were. Snobby and I was wrong.

I'm sorry guys. Um, no, they are not. I mean, it's just like every, every group of people, you have good ones and bad ones and arrogant ones. And ironically, the most arrogant ones are the worst ones. They, they're like the worst fishermen because they're typically insecure. That's why they're dickhead.

So you have to just break through that and be kind to them. 'cause they need a bit of coddling. They come right. Eventually.

Paddy: You said that the podcast helped evolve your thinking on the gender dynamics in fly fishing or in just the fishing world in general. Was there a, a [00:24:00] series of interactions or a series of guests or, discussions that you had that shifted the way that you thought about fly fishermen?

April: I always tell people my favorite guests are men over the age of 80. and women, . It's just harder to find fly fishing women over 80. Uh, but all my guests over 80 are my most insightful, most humbling guests.

They were the best thing that ever happened to me because I learned, you just learn so much. Their perspective is so, so, so advanced beyond anybody in my own, in, in my own age group.

Paddy: Do you think it's something about the age that allows them, it's the wisdom of like, oh, I, I need to, whatever gender dynamics, like, it doesn't really matter. I am a fly fisher and you're a fly fisher, and we're just gonna talk, and it kind of drops away. When you hit the octogenarian stage of life, is it

that,

April: men's, um, have an interesting lifecycle in, in my, in my findings. And again, I, I, I only know so much, I'm still piecing this together, so I'm, I'm learning it as I live it.. But All children are so innocent and beautiful, right?

And they all start that [00:25:00] way. Then there's teens and life happens and life's hard for a lot of these PE for a lot, a lot of people. but it's almost like there is an age, and I can't put a number on it, but there's an age where men soften again. which is funny because they, they actually, you don't notice it because they get so grouchy.

A lot of them get grumpy. Not only testosterone, but identity or like one of my guests we spoke about there, there's sexual sexuality. You know, they identify as being sexual beings.

At some point that changes. Now they're left wondering who the hell they are. So they, they can come across or a lot of them really withdraw, and then they, have fewer friends and then they get into their own heads. And so they can appear to be grouchy. But if you actually can see past the G Grouchiness.

Paddy: yeah.

April: can do if you're just patient. There is a softness to them. like, you'll notice a lot of older men will stop hunting because they don't have the heart to do it anymore. They see young women differently. You take away the testosterone and even the sexuality of it all, and and I'm not saying that they're not sexual.

I mean, I hope that they are, but, they, you know, for their own, for their own identity, [00:26:00] but, but they, they soften. There's something softer there in men as they get older, in my experience.

Paddy: What about the peers then? What about the folks in,

April: My age group. Mm.

Paddy: forties? Yeah.

April: It's a mixed bag. There's still a few that are dickheads, but, we all have our tendencies to be, I'm a dickhead sometimes. I think, I think I've learned with the podcast and just with life, that you just can't assume anything about anybody. I mean, usually they're just having a bad day or, they're projecting some of their own issues.

I don't know. It's, look, it's really hard for me to find someone I genuinely don't like nowadays, that's not just like a me high on coffee here.

Paddy: It seems to me maybe then what the podcast has done for you is allowed you to be more curious and \ drop more like initial judgment.

April: Oh, oh, 100.

Paddy: years into chatting with people about things and so maybe, yeah, it's just made me a more curious person rather than like a, I've had one interaction with this person at the gas station or at the, uh, fly shop, and I know [00:27:00] exactly who they are.

April: So that's the word. Being curious about people, is the most exciting part of my day.

I love learning about people, and I think that's the key. So when you meet somebody, you can either project your own bad day or tell them all about you, or you can actually look at them with curiosity and ask them about themselves. And it's amazing how disarming that is when you not just say, you know, how, how are you doing today?

And you don't mean it, but when you actually ask them, so where are, where are you from? Like, what makes you tick? What's your don't, don't say what makes you tick. That's a horrible question. But what do you, what do you do? I don't know. But if you actually look at people like their people, it's amazing.

Suddenly you start to see them as people. And they're really usually not that bad.

MUSIC FOR A BEAT

PADDYO VO:

More from angler extraordinairre and host of the Anchored Podcast, April Vokey, after the break.

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Paddy: You've had this storied career. you've fished all over the world in all sorts of extreme and remote [00:28:00] locations, and what's striking to me is that you seem comfortable anywhere in any type of water fishing, any type of fish. For instance, in the film, shadow people at the falls, you're fishing for actual river monsters in the jungles of Guyana. It's pretty spooky stuff, but you seem completely at ease.

How do you do that?

April: by letting my instincts take over entirely. Do you hunt? Are you a

Paddy: What do you mean

April: Are you a hunter?

Paddy: I hunt for powder snow.

I hunt for a good time,

but I have never hunted for an animal

April: So one of the most shocking things I ever that Hit me when I was guiding is I would have these people next to me and across from the river, a grizzly bear is walking. Animals are very intentional. Every step matters, every crack matters. Everything matters. The amount of clients who would be beside me who had no idea what was across the river from them, the amount of wildlife that would pass, cross their paths and they had no idea, was always [00:29:00] actually

a little frustrating, honestly, but a real eyeopener for me.

Just to just how, unaware. Human beings are. I pride myself in that I see myself very much as an animal. that's why I don't stray away from talking about sex. I love sex. It's a, it's animalistic. We are animals.

I trust as myself, as a woman because I trust a dough and a nanny goat. I trust female animals for us to trust our instincts, et cetera. I like to look at my wilderness and my wild Guayanan experiences, for example, as an animal. So once you go into an, an environment as an animal, it's not that intimidating because with practice, I've really honed in part partly 'cause of hunting and fishing.

my instinct, I trust my instincts. I, I know. How to turn my ears on and my nose on, and my eyes on. . I know if the wind is on my left or right cheek or on the back of my head or front of my head at any given time without even batting an eye.

It's just part of my day to day feelings, to be able to know if I'm working with wind or against wind, or water or [00:30:00] whatever. You, you hear the trickles and the bugs. You just, you get so in touch with your own senses that you can be put into almost any environment and know that you're going to adapt as an animal, as a prey animal or as a predator.

Yeah. While you're out there.

Paddy: That's fascinating to me. Uh, and I can understand how you would do that outside and why you would want to do that outside, but is there any of that that shows up in conversation on the podcast or in your business life or in your marriage or mothering?

April: Definitely mothering. Mothering is the most animalistic thing I've ever done, for sure.

Paddy: Explain

April: Oh, just the complete senses to, I trust every single thing that my body does.

Even birthing, I mean, your body knows exactly what it needs to do in every form. being a mother is the most natural animal thing that we can do. I think. How deep do you want me to go on that?

Paddy: uh, as deep as you want.

don't shy away

April: yeah, I mean, everything I have. You do You have kids? Yeah. You have kids, right?

Paddy: Yeah. I have a, I have a 1-year-old

April: So, you know, [00:31:00] the miracle you watched your wife give birth, you, you know, that the breastfeeding, helped her heal, you know, that she would leak, you know, about colostrum and, you know, all of that stuff and, and all of what happens there.

But also God forbid someone tried to hurt your child, what would your wife do?

Paddy: Oh, I mean,

April: Scorched earth. Like, it's just a whole d it's a whole different world. and that, that is the same with a grizzly bear it is the same with all most animals. ,

Paddy: Well that, that to me seems like a, a pretty intense feeling. I think parenting, being a mother, being a father is an intense feeling. But, one of the things that I love about fly fishing myself is that it's pretty chill. I mean, when I feel the tug on the end of my line, I lose my shit, you know? But, and Everything prior to that though is pretty calm. Fly fishing to me requires me to slow my ass

down and get in tune with my surroundings and move easy. And that really calls to me because in other areas of my life, I am not [00:32:00] as quiet and rhythmic. So how much of that is what drew you to the sport and how much of that still draws you to the

April: The calm and I'm, I'm, I'm giggling a little to myself 'cause you're like, it's so chill. But I'm thinking to myself, okay, so you're in Northern British Columbia or Alaska. Yes. when you get your feet in the river, it is very chill. But as you are getting, as you are getting from your car to the river, is it that chill because you just crossed three grizzlies a potential spot where you could have broken your foot if you've rafted, maybe you've just hit a class three and you know, whatever it is.

Right.

Paddy: I'm referring to the fly fishing that I do, which is,, trout fishing on skinny, shallow ish rivers in Colorado.

April: Well, and, and I love that. And I love that because that is exactly what I was gonna say. Fly fishing. Fishing is what you wanna make it. So you can make it relaxing and you can make it adrenaline packed. You can make it so that you're targeting great white sharks if you want to. In Australia, you can, you can make it whatever you want it to be.

If you want it [00:33:00] to be a solitude or a solitary thing where you're out there finding your rhythm and relaxing, then yes, go to Idaho and, and make it that, or you know, or like you said, or Colorado. And if you want, make it a crazy adventure that where you have no idea what you're gonna see on the way up, then get on a horseback and go to a glacial lake lake, right?

Like you can make it whatever you want it to be. that's, I think that's the beauty of fly fishing.

Paddy: What calls to you? Like, How do you turn the dial on, cranking it to 10 on serenity or cranking it to 10 on adrenaline. I'm gonna headbut a grizzly and, catch a river monster with my bare hands.

April: is an, there's an, an enormous asterisk there. 'cause it's a very much, it depends. For me, it, it just depends on my mental state, my workload, I mean as a woman.

I'm gonna say four words and then I'll leave it so I don't turn off your male base

Paddy: Oh, please, please, please do whatever you want to do. Don't censor

April: My four words are luteal. Follicular menstruation, ovulation. There are four weeks in a woman's le a [00:34:00] month, 12 times a year. That will impact my decision on what I feel like doing. So I, I, I do everything around those four words. I eat around those four words. I make business meetings around those four words. My relationships and my trips around those four words .

So if I feel, if I'm in a stage where my brain or my progest, whatever, whatever I'm working with at the time needs to relax, and that's the trip I will take for that particular time of my life. Sometimes if I'm feeling really fiery and fired up, then I will book something that's gonna get me in trouble.

So it just all depends.

Paddy: That is fascinating to me. No one on this show has told me that they are making decisions about their outdoor time based upon where they are in their menstrual cycle.

April: Yeah, because there's a time, there is a weird time spec for me anyway. It's in my, it's my luteal phase where I'm. everything is not right. I'm ugly. I'm a complete failure. I don't trust myself. I'm not gonna put myself in the middle of Guyana when I, if I'm feeling like I'm about to jump off a cliff.

So, I mean, [00:35:00] I, I, it's not in a perfect world, so I can't always time it, but at least I give myself the grace to understand, okay, I'm feeling really off in my environment right now, but this is why. And you know why? 'cause I'm an animal and I understand my animal stages. So all of that stuff ties in together.

I know this is the shit you don't talk about with men. And when you're out in the bush, I do not talk about the stuff with men. They would stop listening.

Paddy: amazing. No, no. Everybody, uh, chill out dudes. If you're getting weird about this, like grow up, read a book, talk to your mother and the other women in your life, this is amazing. No,

this is April. This is singular. I have not had this discussion with anyone on this

show before. This is blowing my mind.

April: A lot of the same things that we go through, you guys go through, but you do it in a 24 hour period. So it might take me 30 days, but it takes you 12 hours or 24 hours and in, in 24. I mean, think about your mood when you wake up versus how you feel throughout the day.

So you are, you also have got peaks and, different times in your hormones. I mean, the most obvious example is I don't wanna go, camping in [00:36:00] Alaska if I'm menstruating. That just does not sound like a good idea to me. I don't wanna be in a tr tent when that's happening. I mean, that's a really obvious example, Oh, and the moon, So much of our 30 days depend on the moon, and that's not some crazy, you know, voodoo stuff. That's just, again, part of being, um, an animal.

Paddy: The sex ed of fly fishing with April Vokey. this is,

April: I don't talk about this on my show at all. I've never talked about this on the show because my listener base is 85% men, and men just completely glaze and turn away. They can't help themselves. Most of them, they're like, yep, okay. I'm exiting the conversation.

Paddy: I, you know what? April, I wouldn't shy away from it on, on your show. Like, I mean, you know, if you're coming to learn about fly fishing, guess what? You're coming to learn about menstruation, fellas?

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you have had experiences in the outdoors that are pretty scary and sketchy.

Are you comfortable with talking about those

April: I mean, I just talked about having my period. I'm comfortable with talking about anything like [00:37:00] what's next.

Paddy: Deal. No qualifiers needed. So can you tell me about the time when your raft flipped on the upper Dean River? What happened?

April: Um, well that was stupid. Um, look, I'd always known that I wanted to run this run, it's called Moose Rapids. I knew that there was a chance I wasn't gonna make it, so I kicked the dog off. I tightened my waiting belt up. I made sure to mentally know where my, pulley was on my, life vest, which is already a red flag because if you're gonna be rafting, you should have one that's like a proper

Paddy: rather than an An inflatable.

April: Like 70% of people forget to, or they don't pull the, um, the cord. Yeah.

Paddy: That's spooky.

April: so it's just dumb, right? So I got rid of the dog, did all that. I was in a weird spot.

I wasn't able to hit the seam that I wanted and I got sucked into the, into it. I made the first rapid and I was like, fuck, I'm good. I'm so good. Then the second one, it was like in the movies where you catch air and then there's that moment of, oh, and everything just, I literally caught air and as I came down, my [00:38:00] bow stuck first in the rapid and I flipped.

So I pulled the cord and admittedly I went this way when I thought I was like, I was totally upside down.

I ended up, not having a clue where I was. But, so I popped up and then that was when it all kind of got worse. 'cause you're in the river and you can see that there are more rapids below you, your boat, which is up 'cause it's an inflatable is there, but the shore is there.

Do you grab your boat and hang on and try to get through all the rapids and risk getting sucked back down or having your boot get stuck in a rock. I don't know. Or do you leave the literal flotation like floating life device next to you and try to swim into shore? I didn't have time to think 'cause now I can feel the waiters are filling up, which is a horrible idea to wear waiters

Paddy: That is terrifying.

April: so you're wearing basically a bag. So this bag and my boots are getting heavier. Anyway, I decided to do it. So I swam to shore and then I did what every non-self respecting person with a death wish would do and I stood up, what an idiot. So I get swept back down again. And the dog's running along downstream following me there [00:39:00] is an overhanging branch and I was able to grab the branch and it swung me in like a swung fly and I was able to claw my, I literally had no nails 'cause I clawed my way until I was flat on dry land.

Paddy: Are there lessons learned from that as compared to maybe like having a little more control over either the adrenaline or the serenity of fly fishing that you take into your other experiences outside?

April: yeah, I, I think I'm not as afraid now to put in more steps to avoid more danger, whereas before I would just say, well, let's just rock climb the gorge to get out. I, I won't do that now. I take a step back. As I'm getting older, my body's well, maybe I, I probably should take a step back.

As I'm getting older, I'll, I'll get there. I'll slow down eventually

Paddy: I don't believe you at all.

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Years prior to you flipping on the dean, a drunk driver hit you in a head-on collision nearly killing you in 2008,

I think, if I have.

Right. You were headed to a lake to fish, [00:40:00] towing a trailer with a boat when you were

hit. I've seen the photos. They are

awful,

April: It was bad.

Paddy: Absolutely horrifying.

You just started your business, Flygal Ventures, things were like really growing. Great. and then that happens.

April: Yeah. I quit my cocktailing job. I had gone full on. That's what, at that time, I was still waitressing, so I had just quit, stepped down and went full time into fishing.

We were on our way to film, so we just got signed to do a, a television series, I was with a friend and her and I were heading up to go and film the first episode of Fly Nation at the time. Then that accident happened and I just, I had no income so that was what I actually dove into, not just tying flies, but also, writing articles. Trying to have more of a presence doing other things, you know, speaking for clubs. I ended up actually, because my, because I was in a wheelchair. In the car accident she gave me, or the car, she, I mean, to be honest, it was, it was a caused by human.

She was three times over the legal limit driving a threequarter ton Chevy. And the only thing that saved me was my Tacoma [00:41:00] was on, um, 33 inch tires. And so I was higher than she was, and she, and so she gave me a lease, it's called a lease frank fracture. So my entire right foot was completely crushed. All the joints were crushed, the three inner metatarsals are all plates and pins in my foot. So it's a massive amount of healing. And I was just so depressed. And, you know, the, the physical therapist would come to my house and I was so depressed. Everyone's still up at the lake and I'm by myself. I had to do like the blood clot medication and needle in my stomach.

The whole thing was just a shit show anyway. And I, I said, and I'd never been depressed before. I'm a pretty happy, optimistic person. and I said, I, the, my body's gonna be fine. My, my brain is not well, can I go fishing? I said, you, you know, you've got me doing these exercises in the wheelchair.

It's lake season? What if I'm in my raft or in my, like a little, um, aluminum. Pram and I'm rowing, can I do that? And he said, sure. So someone came and picked me up and we drove all the way back up, back up to the lake and I spent the next month rehabbing fishing and was beyond happy.

I don't know if you've had a near, a near death experience, but I was so high not on drugs, but on life. 'cause I was not supposed to be alive. So everything [00:42:00] was like, oh, life is so good,

Paddy: the, the colors are more vibrant. The tastes are

April: you know,

Paddy: smells are more.

April: it happened. What hap What happened to you?

Paddy: is shiny. Well, this, I, have been in recovery from alcoholism and drug addiction, since I was 29. And

I very Thank you. I very close to dying and very quickly, in rehab and then in the sober house that I lived, I was like, what is this wor, I mean, feeling all of the things on 11, it was just like this overwhelming gratitude of being alive because I was, I should be dead. I should not be here talking to you.

And so that gratitude, those waves of gratitude still come.

To me a lot, especially when looking back or just, you know, it's like when I'm holding my daughter, I'm like, this is a thing that I've always wanted and I shouldn't have had because I should dead

be dead. And so it, it, it has a way of, uh, informing your day to day, let's say. but back to you. [00:43:00] What was it like? Making your first cast

April: I had my foot in a cast, um, you know, casting with a cast, and it was just like you said, it was, everything was just so incredible. I don't remember, admittedly, the first cast. I do remember, however, the first moment of being on that lake and in camp and being like, I, I am, I am here.

And everything with, like you said, the colors, the noises, the sounds, the camaraderie. You gotta be so thankful for people because, I mean, the guys would have to hold me up when I would go pee, you know? It was my first time being dependent people and being thank, so, just so thankful for everything.

Thankful for everybody, everyone. And like you said, it's still, I think that's why I am the way I am today, honestly, with, with people and life and optimism is because of that. But, but there's a dark side to it that so many people don't talk about. I'm sure you would've experienced it when you think, okay, I'm gonna live every single day, like it's my last.

But there's a lot of pressure there because then if you have a bad day or you haven't lived your day, you watch Netflix all day, you're like, no, I promised I would make every day [00:44:00] amazing. but yeah, no, look, so it was, um, the car accident was a massive one, but it, it was, it was a game changer because I did a massive weed of people out of my life.

Anyone who, I felt specifically my, you know, boyfriend, I, I realized this is you're miserable. And, I don't wanna, I don't wanna wake up unhappy. I'm happy. And so I did. And also also looking around, I was overwhelmed with all this clutter and stuff. I just didn't want stuff in my life anymore. I only wanted things that really I saw value in.

So I just got rid of everything and started over. I'd read the Four Hour Work Week by Timothy Ferris and was like, exactly, I, if everything were to burn down tomorrow, I'll be fine. so I just started over and have no regrets on that.

I mean, in that regard then, is fly fishing more than a sport to

Paddy: you? I mean, obviously It's your business. It's given you so many different forms of, your career path. It's how you spend most of your time in the outdoors. But what else is it?

April: Oh, it, it's my identity. It's, it's, it changed my entire life. I think it saved my life. I grew up in a pretty rough area I had some really horrible people, around me.

And so I would it all [00:45:00] to go fishing or, you know, everyone would be, staying up late, getting into trouble. And I'd excuse myself to go get the night bite or get some sleep. 'cause I had to be up at 4:00 AM to be on the river for first light. So, uh, it absolutely saved my life. I cannot say enough about it. It is my whole life. Fly fishing has changed my entire. I dunno if it's changed my life, but it's, it is my life.

Paddy: Do you feel like as much as fly fishing is a sport to you? Is the sport to you, is it also the means by which you navigate your fears? You navigate your joys, your difficulties, your triumphs in

April: Yeah. It's not a sport to me. I know that we're supposed, I think I, I've called it a sport before. It's easy just to say it's a sport, but, but in speaking about it here in long form conversation, it is not a sport to me. Um, and I understand anyone who's like, why would you fly fish? What's the point? Why catch and release?

We should be gear fishing, so let's just, it's not just fly fishing. Fishing, connecting with the water and what's in it for me, is yeah, everything emotionally, psychologically,

Paddy: When you think about everything fly [00:46:00] fishing has taught you and meant to you, is there one lesson, is there one meaning that you're still learning or trying to understand?

April: Well, you mentioned it earlier, you alluded to it, to it earlier, about slowing down. And it's funny because that's the number one advice, a bit of advice I give to everybody when they are getting into fishing. Almost always the answer is just slow down. You know, I can't cast properly. We'll slow down. I don't see any fish there.

Well, slow down. I didn't know where to go. Well, slow down. It's almost always just slow, slow down and, and in life I'm finding it's a lot of the same Trust. My instincts slow down

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Paddy: It is now time for the final

ramble. One piece of gear. You cannot live without

April: Uh, well, ironically, um, it's the thing that almost killed me, but my water master.

Paddy: the boat??

April: Yeah. Yes. Be

Paddy: Not the, not the fly rod.

April: Uhuh.

Paddy: That's, that's

April: Yep. I mean, like, I, I can live without a fly rod. I guess technically if we were gonna get technical, I would need a fly line. You can [00:47:00] cast a fly line without a fly rod. but the boat is, again, it's, it's the thing that can get you everywhere.

Right. I I There's nothing worse.

Paddy: the vehicle for the joy.

April: There's nothing worse than standing and feeling stuck in life on the river anywhere. And at least with the, with that water master, it is my, like you said, vehicle to freedom. I can take it anywhere, but what's so cool about it is that you can get in the middle of the river and be, it's like, it's like a dinghy with a hollowed out center.

You can stand on a rock and be in the middle of the river where you could never get there otherwise. 'cause if you fall, you just fall back into your boat.

Paddy: Oh, it's like the, one of those like wearable little fly fishing boats, like, it's like the sportiest inner tube that's

ever been in.

April: yes. It's like a little donut. It suctions down. You can take it on. Ev like, I took it out yesterday or two days ago. I was on a lake out here and I'm surfing it. Right. And also after my car accident, because I had my cast on.

Oh, after the cast was off and I was in the moon boot, I would just keep my one bad leg up on the water master. And then every time I wanted to go down, when you wanna go downstream, I would just lift my other foot off the ground and I would float down five feet and then I'd put my foot back

Paddy: Uh, like a little [00:48:00] aqua wheelchair.

April: it was, that's what I mean. It, so that the water master every day of the week is my jam

Paddy: Okay. I dig it. Best outdoor snack.

April: Any jerky, any sort of jerky,

Paddy: What's your favorite?

April: Rudolph's in Smithers? Uh, it's, it's super niche. It

Paddy: A reindeer.

April: uh, what? No.

Paddy: Oh, poor

April: Oh my God, that's so funny. I, I like reindeer drinking. No, no, no. The guy, the Ger, the German guy is Rudolph.

Paddy: Santa Santa. If you're listening, protect Rudolph Blitz in blitz in.

April: He is a German man, actually in northern British Columbia named Rudolph. But that is very funny.

Paddy: Okay. Alright.

April: Yeah.

Paddy: What is your hottest outdoor hot take?

April: It brings me right back to slowing down. I'm sorry. It'll always be slowing down. and I know we've discussed that ad nauseum, or, you know, to depth to death. But, um, slowing down. And that's the other thing, Guyana, if I hadn't been slow, I would've stepped on a coral snake, uh, scorpion, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So just my hot take is slowed down. Oh, and here's my other one. If I had to give you fresh, fresh meat,

Paddy: Oh yeah. Oh

April: fish behind [00:49:00] people,

Paddy: oh.

April: It let's you you watch them, watch what they're doing. Watch. Did they get a bite? Did they not get a bite? What are they doing? Are they better than you? What can you do different to get better or different results?

And also don't just, I see so many people, they cast first ask questions later. I row around the edge, I look, slowly, are there bugs? What is happening there? What was that? You know, take, take a minute. Get to the river. Don't just cast, don't go in too far.

What's under your feet? What's happening around you?

Paddy: Go slow. Be

curious. You

fishers, do you hear it? Okay. I'm d I'm digging this. This is great. I'm gonna go to the river and go very slow and not do what I usually do, which is tie, intricate, incredibly frustrating knots with my cast, and then just curse like a sailor for most of

the day. That's usually what I do, but now I'm just gonna, you know, check in with my luteal phase and go slow.

April: Good idea. Excellent. I like it.

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR [00:50:00] FOR A BEAT

PADDYO VO:

April Vokey is a fly fisher, outdoorswoman, casting instructor, podcaster, and self proclaimed master of dirty jokes, who refused to tell me any of her favorite dirty jokes becuase they are apparently far too dirty for public consumption. April is also the membership coordinator for Anchored Outdoors, an online educational platform and community focused on fly fishing, hunting, foraging, and homesteading. Think masterclasses, tutorials, and articles from industry experts. Find out more at Anchored Outdoors dot com. And don't forget to listen to April host the Anchored Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Plus, follow her adventuring on Instagram, at April Vokey.

  Aaaannnd, don't forget that these podcast episodes exist as both ear candy and an eye buffet. Yup, we are on YouTube. Just search The Outside Podcast on YouTube to enjoy these chitchats with your eyes as well as your ears.

And, remember that [00:51:00] we want to hear from you. Sooo, email your pod reactions, guest nominations, which phases of the moon does what to your fly cast, and whatever else you want to tell and/or ask us to Outside Podcast At Outside Inc Dot Com.

The Outside Podcast is hosted and produced by me, Paddy O'Connell. But you can call me PaddyO. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard, Micah "If you count goldfish crackers I catch many a fish with my mouth" Abrams. Music and Sound Design by Robbie Carver. Booking and research by Maren Larsen. And additional production support by brand new to the pod team member Jeanette Courts.

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