What the Ocean Teaches You About Perseverance, with Chad Nelsen

Paddy: How do you yourself, fight off being myopic and territorial and try to stay zen about the physical pursuit of surfing?

Chad: Yeah, I mean, I, I think I do what like a lot of other surfers do. I either like, know I'm going down to trestles in July and a south swell that's been forecast for five days and everybody and their uncle will be out surfing. And I just kind of resign myself to trying to you know, be in the crowd. And then I'll. either try to surf off times or I'll surf lesser waves. I do think also the best surfers who are the fittest and know the waves the best do tend to get the waves. There is a bit bit of like meritocracy out in the water.

So you just make these trade-offs about like what your goal is

Paddy: do you think that type of attitude is kind of the keystone in motivating more than the 1% of surfers to join surf rider and start moving towards the pursuit of surfing as a way to protect the environment?

Chad: I would hope that if you spend enough time in the [00:01:00] ocean and you learn to love these places that you're surfing, that, that would ultimately motivate you to. Become a steward of those places. oftentimes it takes a threat whether it's a pollution event, an oil spill, a threat to a wave, people will be shocked out of their complacency and be like, you know, that's when they're really quick to call

Paddy: Yeah. Yeah. How can,

Chad: all, all of a sudden I'm their best friend.

Paddy: yeah. Totally.

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PADDYO VO:

One thing that I love about people who recreate outdoors is that we mostly accept that enthusiastic effort in no way guarantees a desired outcome. We climb heinous hills in search of yipee-filled downhills, but we know there’s always a chance we’ll be greeted with icy death cookies from hell or a gear malfunction that derails the entire adventure. Why is it that the everpresent chance of smackdowns, disappointments, and bloodied limbs don’t deter us? I’m not exactly sure, to be honest, but I do know one guy [00:02:00] who puts that optimistic persistence to better use than any of us: Chad Nelsen.

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Chad is a lifelong surfer and the CEO of the Surfrider Foundation, an environmental nonprofit dedicated to protecting and preserving the world’s oceans, waves, and beaches. The dude knows about trying hard in the face of uncertainty. Chad grew up in Laguna Beach in the 70s, long before it was the privileged teeny bopper playground made famous by MTV. Back then, Laguna was sleepy and smog-choked, and there were plenty of days when the water quality was so bad, you didn’t want to be in it. When it was safe, Chad was diving, spear fishing, and getting pounded by relentless waves as he learned to surf.

So that idea of unguaranteed outcomes was instilled early and twofold: First, few outdoor sports are as capricious in terms of conditions as surfing. Winds, tides, the fact [00:03:00] that you’re trying to two step on a floating piece of foam hurtling down an ever-changing surface — things are always going wrong. And second, the ocean itself seemed to be under constant assault by development and pollution.

But Chad also spent formative years with his family on the South Pacific island of Saipan, where he was introduced to an entirely different way to think about the ocean. He was inspired to pursue environmental science, all the way to a PhD, combining everything he’d learned about sustainability and protection with his first love: surfing.

Chad will be the first to tell you that surfers, as a group, aren’t nearly as ocean minded as one might think. And the rest of us, well, there are grinding elements of apathy, fecklessness, and disengagement that stand in the way of Surfrider’s goals to ensure a healthy and productive ocean for generations to come. But [00:04:00] Chad pursues those goals with enthusiasm and excitement. Just like a surfer paddling into pounding beach break, because he knows there are fantastic waves if you can just make it out the back.

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First things first, burnt toast. What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment outside?

Chad: Well, I, I had three to pick from.

Paddy: Oh, I love it.

Chad: three different sports that, uh, either means that outdoor recreation's humbling, or I'm uncoordinated. Uh, probably

Paddy: both.

is probably true.

Chad: Uh, but I'll, I'll give you my surfing example. So, um, Getting a new custom made surfboard is a very special thing in surfing.

I, I've been surfing for decades and every time I get a new surfboard, it's still like the most exciting thing in the world. It's like Christmas day all over again.

so this spring I ordered a custom surfboard, you know, and then you wait months for this thing to be produced. And I got this surfboard and it's mint, and I'm so excited.

I'm gonna go out to my favorite local surf [00:05:00] spot. Uh, I paddle out there, it's a rocky, rocky coast, and, um, I'm showing it to all my buddies. Oh, ooh, ah, new surfboard. Look at Chad's board, blah, blah, blah, you know, and everyone's like, this thing is so amazing.

Paddy: God.

I

Chad: was

Paddy: like I know where this story is

Chad: Yeah, it's,

Paddy: heart is like starting to hurt right now.

Chad: And, waves are good.

Uh, I've been surfing this place my whole life. I learned to surf there, so I know it like the back of my hand. second wave.

I just surfed the thing right into the rocks,

Paddy: no.

Chad: destroyed it,

Paddy: like,

like just gouge the hell out of it. Like

Chad: buckled it. So it was like broken in half, but not all the way. So it has a crease in it, destroyed it. So I, I then had to do like the paddle of shame into the beach.

The things like flopping around and,

and walk up, you know, and everyone's like, oh, oh, oh, you know, and then for the rest of the week I heard, Hey, I heard you destroyed your new surfboard. So it was a very expensive surf session.

Paddy: So Was the wave good? Oh

Chad: I [00:06:00] obviously pushed it a little too close to the edge, uh, misjudged it

Paddy: Oh my God.

Chad: I fell before I hit the rock and then the board hit the rock. Better the board than me. .

Yeah. Bought, I had to buy a new surfboard.

Paddy: God, I did.

Chad: I have like a really great ding repair guy

I did actually pay for it to be repaired so that he could give it to, some kid who needs a surfboard

Paddy: Okay. Alright, well that's really,

that's really nice of you.

Chad: partly because I didn't want the materials to be straight to the landfill

Paddy: Yeah,

Chad: It was humbling.

Paddy: Well, here's the deal. Sometimes, sometimes fun is expensive.

Chad: Yes. That's kind of how I had to look at

Paddy: Oh man, that breaks my heart. I'm so sorry. Oh,

that hurts

Chad: I've, I've gotten past it.

Paddy: God. Alright, let's get into it.

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let's talk about the good days of surfing. Tell me the day that you became a surfer. What's the moment that made this passion become such an important part of your life?

Chad: Yeah, [00:07:00] it's a little fuzzy 'cause it was a long, long time ago. But, um, I, I, you know, pretty lucky I grew up like three or four blocks above this wave that I was surfing. So it's like in my neighborhood,

the older kids in my neighborhood were like really good surfers. And so I was probably like, nine or 10 when my brother and uh, one of our buddies decided like we were going to learn to surf.

And this was long before surf coaches or surf camps

Paddy: Okay.

Chad: Back then, the way you learned to surf is you like begged your parents for a little bit of money and then you tried to cajole one of these older kids to like sell you one of their crappy used surfboards. You know, these people you idolized and

Paddy: yeah. Totally.

Chad: both idolized and were terrified of,

uh, and then you would, you know, so I remember like we scored these used surfboards from these older kids up the street, and then went down to this surf spot and like just tried to start figuring it [00:08:00] out.

it was rocky. We were getting cut up, we were surfing on the little inside wave. but like it seemed somewhat preordained. That's the funny thing about it. It was kinda like what you did when you grew up where I grew up. But it also was like, oh, This is so fun and the challenge is so real.

And, you know, we kinda never really looked back.

I was already boogie boarding, so like, that was the evolution. Like when I was a kid, you kind of like the, I mean, I'm old enough that, like, I remember when the Boogie Board came out,

And so it was like the Boogie Board, you kind of got that sense of the glide.

So I knew like how to ride a wave, so it was kind of like, the ability to stand up. And like, have that whole different perspective and then like, it's so much faster to be standing than dragging your feet behind you. You know, it wasn't this sort of like, you know, you hear about these people who are like, I felt the glide, like that part I, that part to me, I, you know, fortunately I'd already kind of like, I knew the thrill of riding a wave.

This [00:09:00] was kind of like, oh, I'm gonna now do it on the like, best possible craft.

Paddy: I'm like standing up above it and it was

Chad: Yeah. I feel I can like,

I can like, yeah. It's that, that, uh, addiction of the acceleration across water, which I still have as much today as I did when I was like nine years old.

Paddy: Well, let's talk a little bit about childhood, because When you were very small, your dad got a job teaching in Saipan,

and you've said living there had a huge impact on your relationship with the ocean.

Can you explain that to me? Can you paint a picture for us of living in Saipan and how that made such a lasting impact on you?

Chad: Yes. so Saipan is the small island, in the Mariannas like by Guam, so it's out in the middle of the South Pacific. It was kind of a, it's a US territory. It was a World War ii, like strategic location. That's why we, I guess,

took it over.

my dad was like doing kind of like a teacher corps thing there.

So he's teaching high school on this tiny little island. he taught the local Chamorro kids. The chamorros are the indigenous peoples [00:10:00] of Saipan and those neighboring islands. so a, we're living in tropical paradise. My dad was an ocean science educator and like a dive instructor, so he was like an ocean guy, although not a surfer.

and then we were hanging out with these chamorro people who. Like, were at one with the ocean in a really profound way. So like, you know, we were out diving and snorkeling. I wasn't diving, they were diving, but like snorkeling. And just sort of like looking at how these peoples, their relationship with the ocean was so intimate.

like one of the famous stories while I was there is like one of the fishing boats went missing and these guys were gone for weeks,

you know, and everyone's like, oh God, you know, this happens. And people were worried about them and they, they came back three weeks later and like, they were fine.

Like they'd gotten blown off course and they, but they like found their way back 'cause they can like live,

Paddy: Yeah.

Chad: and get water. Like, they knew how to survive on the open ocean in a way that was like, well this is just gonna take some time. But like, we'll, we'll work our way back.

This fundamental connection with the ocean [00:11:00] and nature in a, in a really deep and profound way. Which you hear about, this is why we should be listening to more indigenous cultures

Paddy: Yeah, yeah,

Chad: resource management and how our relationship with the planet.

and, and so that definitely was like, I was like, okay, this is a, I love the ocean. b there is a way of communing with the ocean that's like deeper than, you know, just running out and catching a wave and leaving it. And then just sort of like the endless fascination, which I still have with the ocean.

'cause there's, it's, you can learn something new about it almost every day.

Paddy: can you trace like your. career in environmentalism, like back to this like deeper understanding of, relationship to the natural world with the, the time in Saipan

Chad: Absolutely. And it's funny 'cause it took me a while. You know, I was like a math and science nerd in high school and, uh, in college and I, you know, I got interested in, pursuing an environmental career, kind of post-college during college and post-college. It took me a while to like realize that I could, focus on the ocean and do ocean conservation.

For some reason despite, [00:12:00] like having this whole life built around the ocean, um, and being interested in conservation, I, it took me until I went to grad school to like put those two pieces together.

Paddy: Do you think the time there made you a better surfer because it deepened the relationship with the water?

Chad: I think it made me a better surfer in the sense that like, I feel like I, it it to me, surfing and being in the ocean's more than just riding the wave.

Paddy: Mm

Chad: So in that sense, like it's the totality of the experience. versus people I think who maybe just are solely focused on like the wave riding, you know, think about skiing in Telluride, which is such a beautiful spot.

Like, it's not just like the run in front of you, it's like the San Juan Mountains and like the whole thing, you know, otherwise you could be in Dubai skiing down like an indoor,

Paddy: Yeah.

Chad: slope and be like, you know.

Paddy: And in some refrigerated mall

Chad: Yeah, exactly.

Paddy: of sadness.

Chad: So I do think it, it, it sort of, uh, generally just sort of deepen my appreciation for the, what surfing gives me.

Paddy: Well, then when your family moved back to [00:13:00] California a few years later, you kind of grew up into this like. Surfing egghead like you.

You attend Brown to study geology, went to grad school at Duke's Nicholas School of the environment, and after graduation you join NOAA as a coastal management fellow. You received your doctorate on the economics of coastal recreation and surfing at UCLA.

Then you joined Surf Rider and after 16 years you become CEO in 2014, dude, hell of a resume. Most of the time. I imagine these identities of like ocean science guy and surfer dude mesh pretty well. But have there been times when there was a tension between those identities as a surfer who wants to save good breaks, and a scientist who wants to save the ocean and beaches, or are they one in the same?

Am I misunderstanding this?

Chad: Well, it's interesting actually. When I was a kid, in the late seventies, early eighties, I felt like I had to make a choice. Like you were a surfer and you were [00:14:00] not like an academic achiever.

Paddy: Uhhuh.

Chad: Or you were like, uh, someone who was interested in school and being a nerd,

And I think in retrospect, my parents were probably more involved in this than I realized, but like, I had like my sort of surfing and skating buddies and I had like my like nerd posse of like ap, know, And, uh, they were like two different worlds.

And I actually like, kind of in some ways gravitated towards the nerds and the, 'cause I felt like that's where I had to go. And so I, I kind of hung up surfing for a while in high school.

Paddy: You

felt like you had to go there, what? Because of the, uh,

pressure from

Chad: I felt like that was like

the. Pressure my parents and just sort of like, that's where I'm gonna find opportunity in, you know, I was a curious kid who wanted to like learn, I love learning.

So I was like, oh, okay. Like this is the pathway that's going to give me the most opportunity in the future. And at the time it felt like that was the choice I had to make.

So, you [00:15:00] know, I come full circle and I do this like surf-o-nomics PhD

and uh, it's still funny 'cause when I say that I get a laugh,

Paddy: Yeah,

Chad: which tells you that like the stereotype of surfing and intellectuals is still exists because they're like, no, you not. You didn't really do that. And I'm like, no, really I did.

Paddy: So you hung up surfing, in high school and then you returned to it, uh, in your PhD program.

Chad: I went to grad school in North Carolina. Uh, I started surfing again while I was there, and that was when I, I like joined this coastal environmental management program at Duke, which was

Paddy: Right, yeah.

Chad: I, I started like studying coastal processes and wave breaking, and this is when I was like, oh, I can blend my love of the ocean and surfing and academics and like, so that's when like, you know, all the stars aligned, so to speak, for me to kind of figure out that I can like, have my cake and eat it too.

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Paddy: You returned back to California and you've seen Laguna Beach since the eighties. Have you seen the beach and the ocean and, and [00:16:00] more interestingly, maybe the culture change over the past handful of decades

Chad: yeah, that's a great question. I mean, and that it is, it's funny, I, you know, I've lived in Laguna Beach now, like 45 out of my 55 years. That's, uh, was not part of the grand plan. That's how I became, that's how I became a accidental townie.

Paddy: Yeah. Yeah.

Chad: and, uh, but yeah, I, it's interesting. So environmentally laguna's a success story.

The coast of ocean are healthier today than they were arguably, than when I was a kid. They've made huge improvements in water quality.

Historically, the, the ocean's where everything that runs off the ground ends up, it ends up in a river , and those rivers end up in the ocean usually somewhere with, with few exceptions. And so unfortunately, we've treated the ocean for like, many, many decades as sort of like, a really convenient trashcan.

So, right, we dump our sewer into the ocean, we dump effluent from, you know, the off of DDT, off of uh, la and part of it's just gravity, right? That's where it all goes. Uh, and, and [00:17:00] part of it was, oh, the ocean's so vast and limitless. We will never pollute it. We can just dump everything there.

Part of the environmental movement in the seventies and eighties was that these water bodies, Santa Monica Bay was too polluted to swim in. Laguna Beach, my home town, which had an aging. Wastewater system used to have a sewer spill like once a week.

you know, so that was just kind of part of life that you couldn't go in the ocean because pipe broke or pump station

Paddy: Yeah. Yeah.

Chad: And so over the last several decades, the Clean Water Act and other things really have resulted in, EPA, which you know, is obviously under threat now. the EPA was gonna fine Laguna Beach if they didn't step up their game. And surf Rider and other coastal activists put the heat on them and they upgraded the wastewater treatment system, you know, to cost millions of dollars.

So the ocean's a lot cleaner

and then on the marine life side, you know, when I was a teenager, I was a lifeguard in town and we were out trying to spearfish and catch fish and we couldn't catch 'em.

And we thought we were just [00:18:00] bad at it.

So we were like, Hey, older guys, like, what are we doing wrong? How do we go catch big fish? And they're like, you can't, it's fished out.

That was like a very sort of fatalistic view. Oh, it's fished out. We just grew up knowing that it was fished out, meaning you caught all the fish.

It started 20 years ago, But about 12 years ago, they established these marine protected areas up and down the coast of California. And these are no fishing zones, designed to protect habitat. And Laguna has rocky reefs and kelp beds. It's a pretty spectacular coastal ecosystem.

And, um, it was super controversial 'cause the fishermen didn't want to give up these spots understandably. and a lot of people weren't convinced it was gonna work. But 12 years ago they basically drew a box off Laguna Beach and said, no take, no fishing, no nothing inside this zone.

I was actually out swimming out there this morning and, uh, kelp beds are thicker than I've ever seen them. Giant fish lobster everywhere. And so it's really. Changed in a super positive way. So, you know, when my kids are out [00:19:00] there snorkeling, they're looking at an ocean that's much richer than the one I did 30 years ago.

So it's like a comeback story in that sense.

culturally it's shifted a lot. 'cause when I was a kid, it was a sleepy beach town.

And, uh, when I went to college on the East Coast and I said I was from Laguna Beach, no one had ever heard of it.

know, and thanks to MTV and other things, it's become a lot more popular. Uh, and it's become a lot more affluent. So it's, you know, it was kind of like an artist, hippie, surfer town when I was growing up. And now it's, you know, there's a lot of fancy cars on the roads.

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Paddy: caring about the ocean is a multi-generational characteristic in your family,

and I'm wondering if there is any moment. Like did you work in like giving a crap about the ocean into DAD- ing around like teaching your kids to surf?

Chad: Yeah, absolutely. And I, my dad that did that to me and I don't think I was particularly aware of it. I think I sort of took the same approach, which was, to instill in them a curiosity about the ocean. 'cause I actually think that [00:20:00] is kind of what ultimately drives that love and, um, sort of desire to understand it and, and then therefore care for it.

For him it was sort of easy. He ran like a marine science education program. So like, I would go, I would go to his, I would go to his lab that was like full of aquariums

Paddy: so cool.

Chad: would do, you know, teach us. Physics experiments about like buoyancy and density and, you know, warm water, uh, floating above cold water.

And, and so I, kind of grew up just absorbing this and in one of his aquariums, he had, an octopus,

He actually taught this octopus to shake hands, honest to God.

So you know, in the mornings he'd go to the, his lab, and this was in Dana Point, just down the road, and he would feed the octopus, the piece of fish, and it would come see him coming, come out and greet him to get the fish, and then he could hold the fish above the tank. And it got to the point where, you know, he had this great like parlor trick where he

Paddy: Oh my

Chad: Educating a bunch of [00:21:00] kids, he'd walk over to the aquarium, the octopus would see him, the octopus would like come out and he'd just wave his finger, you know, above the tank and it would reach up out of the tank and like grab his hand, And

Paddy: And so then how did you do something similar like that with

your kids? Were you, were you teaching your kids the High Five Dolphins or

Chad: yeah, I, I, I couldn't beat that.

But I mean, you know, I would take them out to the tide pools, uh, at low tide and we'd poke around and look at the, like, animals and the critters.

Uh, we would go snorkeling, if you expose kids to the outdoors and you start telling them about, you know, whether it's trees or kelp or, marine mammals and dolphins and sea lions or bears and wolves, you know, it's inherently interesting.

So I think it's, it's really just exposure and then asking questions and, and sort of, wondering about what's going on out there.

I mean, I could have driven them to the beach.

They could have paddled out and surfed for an hour. I could have, they could have come into the beach and I could have put 'em in the car and taken 'em home.

Paddy: Yeah. Yeah.

Chad: instead we sort of tried [00:22:00] to look at the totality of the ocean as a place to, be curious about beyond just, uh, the act of riding a wave.

Paddy: With the current cuts to environmental protections, are you afraid of a reversal of the things that you've seen in Laguna Beach? Like say, are you afraid that your grandkids are gonna grow up in an ocean more polluted than the water that your kids did and, and maybe. Even more scary. The water of your own youth.

Chad: Yeah. You know, I mean. Two of the issues that have arguably gotten worse since I was a kid, are plastic pollution right now. It's ubiquitous. , I don't really remember being aware of it as a kid other than sort of litter on the beach. But, you know, I pull plastic out of the ocean every time I go surfing.

It's just out there. and then climate change and sea level rise is gonna impact the coastlines as well. the oceans are having marine heat waves. 90% of the excess heat on the planet has been absorbed by the oceans. They're buffering us from the worst impacts of climate change and that heat's manifesting itself in marine [00:23:00] heat waves.

It's why that hurricane Aaron that's on the east coast right now went from like a category one to a five in record time? 'cause we've just superheated our oceans so I do worry about those things and. What's happening now is devastating. know, it's all happened so quickly.

it's gonna take us a long time to fully realize the impact of the disastrous cuts that we're seeing at noaa, which is American's Ocean Agency, EPA, the climate, . I mean, it's, it's bad news the only thing that gives me hope, and it it it shouldn't be this way, is, the environmental movement, like, made a lot of progress since the seventies and got us to a place where, you know, the ocean's pretty clean, the air's clean.

When I was a kid in Laguna Beach, I used to, like, in the summer, my brother and I used to lay in our beds, like with a shallow cough, asthmatic cough from the smog,

Paddy: Oh my God.

Chad: you know, that's gone

Paddy: yeah, yeah.

Thank God.

Chad: the Air Act. And, and uh, they, they'd like to bring that back. They want to give, they wanna give your kid that cough.

Um.

Paddy: Totally. Yeah.

Chad: And so there's gonna have to be a huge [00:24:00] rebuilding effort, to restore the capacity laws and ability to basically protect ourselves from being poisoned.

Paddy: Well, I don't wanna be naive, and I definitely don't want to be Pollyanna, but I think

a lot of times when you're talking about, Environmental causes, for me personally, I just, I just get like overwhelmed and like very, very sad.

So, because it just seems like the constant threat. Constant threat, and you're like, I, am overloaded with, what seems to be an affront to, our environment, to the natural world and also to our future. So I do think that pointing at wins is an important thing

Chad: Yep.

Paddy: Even though you can border on naivety I think you just need to give your heart something to like work toward. What are some of the wins that you can point to, to help us appreciate the impact of those like surf rider who have fought for the environment?

Chad: Yeah, no, it's a great question. And you know, we can always be making progress.

Paddy: Yeah.

Chad: and, surf rider banned single use plastics in a bunch of [00:25:00] different ways. In Oregon this year. State law, Washington state passed a game changing plastic pollution law called extended producer responsibility, basically putting the burden of plastic pollution on the producers, which is a big solution.

Florida passed a state law this year already that, permanently protected coastal state parks, which were under threat.

Paddy: Florida?

Chad: vir. Yeah, I mean, you can get this done in Florida.

Paddy: Yeah.

Chad: Surf rider's, a member of something called the Outdoor Alliance, which is like that you probably know them, that Human powered Outdoor Recreation coalition so that, big public lands win, which was getting Mike Lee's public land sell off out of the, BBB,

but that was like, that's like an incremental win. And to me that was really, instructive because. If the public gets involved at scale, which is what happened in that issue, we can get what we want.

Paddy: it was also like a, a, in terms of the, you know, what was going to be this gigantic public land grab, like a ton of people who would otherwise seemingly never hang out or do [00:26:00] something together, came together to say like, absolutely not, which gave me a little bit of hope in, an increasingly, you know, partisan world.

But I guess in your opinion. Considering the cornucopia of threats to the environment right now. Right? This like anti anti-science opinions and political leanings based on vibes, not facts, era that we're living in. Do you think that surfers are doing enough to help?

Chad: No, they're not, no. Outdoor group is, I don't think,

Paddy: Hot take.

Chad: yeah, it, it, it

Paddy: I like it though. Tell me, tell, tell

me why.

Chad: we have about 50,000 members which on one hand sounds like a good number. there's 3 million surfers, best guess in the United States. So, you know, we have like one and a half percent, if I'm doing the math right, of the surfing population, doesn't sound like a lot. So I went to, you know, access fund and, imba and others and said, what's your ratio? And they're like, oh, it's worse. Um, so, you know, so we have like a very small percentage of, people participating in these [00:27:00] outdoor sports regularly and actively engaged in, in sort of protecting the places that we play.

So you have on one hand I think a lot of apathy in surfing and, and all, and all outdoor recreation. I don't single out surfing. And on the other side of it, we just witnessed what happens if we can all come together and use their voices.

And so, you know, I think that, a lot of the things that are happening, whether it's the lack of climate action or like, you know, this threats to our public lands are hugely unpopular.

the difference between something being popular and happening or not is whether or not we choose to be active.

Paddy: So how do, how do you motivate against that apathy?

Chad: Yeah, I mean, you know, at Surf Rider, our strategy is local organizing, right? So we have 200 chapters and clubs. We do beach cleanups, we do coastal restoration projects, we do movie nights. So we're trying to find ways to, and this gets back to your sort of question about being overwhelmed or thought is like, let's go out and plant some dune grass.

Paddy: Hmm.

Chad: I [00:28:00] can make the world a little better than it was yesterday. I'm gonna feel good about it. I'm gonna meet other people who are equally motivated to do this. It'll be fun. There'll, there'll be coffee and donuts and, , you'll feel good at the end of the day. And I think if we can.

Multiply that and leverage that. So then when we're like, Hey, there's a bill in Florida to fund coastal restoration to the tune of 15 million bucks, will you be willing to call your reps and say, this is important. They're much more likely to, so our, our sort of like theory of change is,

, Let's get people active in their backyards, the places they care about, the places they relate to. Let's make that meaningful and impactful. Uh, and then let's try to scale that up to, political action at the local, state and federal level.

Paddy: It sounds like you're taking on like the Mother Teresa, idea around change, right? She, mother Teresa, very

famously was asked like, how do you change the world? And she responded, start at home.

So it seems like if you can make people, give a crap about what's happening at their local beach [00:29:00] break, then, perhaps they can care what's happening at a national or even global level.

Chad: I think that's right. I mean, I think the reason there were such strong, response to the public land sell off 'cause people could see themselves in the story.

Paddy: Yeah.

Chad: Uh, right. And so they were like, oh, that's the place I like to mountain bike or hike or rock climb or whatever it was. And so they're like, not so they, they, they became a, a, a character in the, issue versus like some abstract Oh, that's for somebody else to do.

PAUSE PAUS E

it is unfortunate that we live in a world that. People feel like they immediately need to take sides. And those sides tend to be extreme because , the issues we're trying to contend with and, and many others in the world are actually like, pretty complex and require nuance and compromise and thoughtful and mutual respect.

And so like, you know, everyone's like, why can't we solve, name the problem? You know? And it's 'cause we're playing tug of [00:30:00] war, not trying to like, find a reasonable solution.

PADDYO VO:

More from Surfrider CEO and real life Aquaman, Chad Nelsen, after the break.

MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL

Paddy: Part of what I'm hoping to get here from you is this behind the curtain, look at the general mindset and also the culture of surfing, because I think that people think that surfers are very chill, and though I've only surfed a few times, what I know is that. A lot of the times like surfers are not very chill, and my producer, sweet, sweet Micah is a devoted surfer.

He's a southern California guy and he has a hot take on surfers that I would love to get your thoughts on, and it is a very long. Robust quote,

Chad: All right. Let's do it

Paddy: so

Micah says,

Micah: Surfers are the worst. Now, let me caveat this by saying that I am a surfer and therefore absolutely guilty of all the things that I'm about to complain about, but surfers are the worst. And the reason why is that we're driven by a scarcity mindset [00:31:00] because at any surf break in the country, on most days, there is going to be way more surfers than there is waves.

So you just have to be a dick about it or you're not gonna get any surf. It's just the way it works. I'm a dick about it. When I'm surfing, I'm not proud of it, but I get waves. And so we're all sitting out there and we're just frustrated, and we're just so focused on the next wave that we often fail to see any kind of bigger picture.

The best you can hope to do is go to the same surf break day after day after day, and then you might become part of the community that considers themselves locals to that break, and you might wind up being more generous to those surfers, which is great, except that you're doing it at the expense of every poor schmuck who paddles out there that day and isn't part of that community.

surfers are the worst. We've got this built in territorialism and it's at a micro level for that wave or that swell or that break. And it's also at a macro level based on how the coast developed in this country. Anywhere you go surfing in this country, you're liable to be in the water with somebody who's a second or third or fourth generation member of a family that's just seen their community totally overrun with population growth and wealth and real estate expansion.

And it just makes everybody just, ah, get [00:32:00] off my lawn. This is even true in places where people think it's super kumbaya, like Southern California. It's especially true in places like Southern California and everybody assumes we're environmentalists, but the reality is most of us are so focused on trying to get our next wave that we're not thinking about the environment when we're out there.

the worst of us, aren't even thinking about the environment when we're not in the water.

Paddy: Thoughts on that?

Chad: Uh, spoken like a surfer who grew up in Southern California.

Paddy: Well, he is actually, he's actually from the east coast,

but he has lived in Southern

California for a very, very

Chad: He's been jaded by, uh,

Southern California surf culture. I mean, it's interesting 'cause, you know, I guess there's a lot of truth to that. for sure. I've grew up in it, witnessed it.

Surfing has this unique characteristic of being a really limited resource. There is kind of a zero sum element to it that's just a little different than other sports. If you're gonna go climb a really popular rock climbing route and you know, there could be a line at the base.

So you have to wait your turn, but it's not like if they do the rock climb, you [00:33:00] can't do it

Paddy: yeah, yeah.

Chad: because it's gone. Right. And so there is that, and I, I surf at Trestles, which is one of the most, crowded and competitive surf spots probably in the United States.

To me it, it's a little bit like, I love this. Uh, there's a billboard that I saw in Southern California that said, you are the traffic.

Paddy: Oh yeah. I love

that. Yeah. Oh

Chad: Right. And so everyone's like, well, who, who,

Paddy: the

traffic. Yeah, totally.

Chad: It's like, who the fuck are all these people in my way

Paddy: totally.

Chad: says every single person in the way.

Uh, and there's a little bit of that at surfing too, right? So like, you, you paddle a out of trestles and there's 40 guys in the water and you're like, oh, I thought this was for me.

Says every single surfer

Paddy: crowds. Yeah.

Chad: and, right, exactly. You are the crowd. and then the other thing about it is when you're sitting in traffic, you can choose to let it drive you insane, beat on your steering wheel and flip people off

or you can like, flip on a podcast or some music, and you're like, I guess I'm gonna be zen about this. And I, I feel the same way about surfing. So like, [00:34:00] I can go out at trestles and I, I, by no means am I perfect every time, but I'm like, Hey, I'm going out to a crowded competitive place.

Some days I'm gonna get a lot of waves. Other days I'm not. And so I feel like a lot of it is the mental approach you bring to it,

Paddy: do you think that type of attitude is kind of the keystone in motivating more than the 1% of surfers to join surf rider and start kind of moving towards surfing as a way to protect the environment?

Chad: yeah. I mean, I would hope that if you spend enough time in the ocean and you learn to love these places that you're surfing, that, that would ultimately motivate you to. become a steward of those places. oftentimes it takes a threat, whether it's a pollution event, an oil spill, a threat to a wave, people will be shocked out of their complacency and be like, you know, that's when they're really quick to call

Paddy: Yeah. Yeah. How can,

Chad: all, all of a sudden I'm their mead.

Paddy: Yeah.

Totally.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Let's talk about the Save Trestles movement, because that's arguably one of the most [00:35:00] successful efforts

that that Surf Rider has, Helmed, right? There was gonna be a toll road in San Clemente that would've likely killed one of the best breaks in the world, but Surf Rider galvanized and activated a huge swath of what has been described to me as a notoriously disengaged Southern California surf community.

How did you do it?

Chad: Just to set the scene, Trestles is the only spot where the World Surf League regularly holds a like pro contest in the United States. So it's arguably like the best contest wave in the us. One of the best waves pretty much has a wave that's Surfable 360 days a year, which is pretty unusual.

It's a river mouth, which is why it, what makes the wave good? It's a cobble river mouth, which is a common Geographic feature that makes great waves. , And the watershed is relatively undeveloped. It goes up into wilderness, behind Camp Pendleton.

So in urbanized southern California, it's a gem.

it's a state park. The water's clean, it's got great waves, healthy beaches, and there's not a lot of development around. [00:36:00] So you actually kind of feel like you're in a wild place even though you're surrounded by 30 million people. Um, so it's a, so just to set the scene, it's a super special place.

It's got endangered species. There's a lot, worth protecting. and it has this incredibly loyal surf community. I, that's where I did my surf omics research and people drive from like all over Southern, from Santa Barbara to San Diego to go there. ' it's like Yosemite

it's a destination. And then, you know, this toll road was gonna. Destroyed it at State Park gut. The watershed screw up the water quality, screw up all the sediment and cobble that, make the river mouth this amazing series of waves. The threat was real. but the surf community. I called it like the Woodstock of surfing conservation.

they like rallied in a way that was amazing. State Parks Commission hearing, most attended in history, California Coastal Commission meeting, thousands of people came out. They had to keep changing the venue to accommodate the crowd.

Paddy: That's awesome.

Chad: people were showing up in costume that, that's why I called it the Woodstock.

There were like bands playing. It was [00:37:00] actually celebratory.

Paddy: Oh

Chad: Activism when done right is joyful.

Paddy: Hmm.

Chad: You're in community, you're having a good time, you're making a difference. You know, you're sticking it to the man.

You know, these, these are all things that are like fun.

Uh, it's fun to win. It's fun to do it with people. so in some ways it, it's analogous to like a sporting event. We made a compelling argument, that the threat was real. We took advantage of the fact that the industry and the media, surf industry and surf media is based here.

So we could talk to the leaders of the big surf brands and the surf media and say, Hey, you need to talk about this with your constituents. really great organizing, among surf rider and fellow coalition members that participated.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: Do you think that the way that Surf Rider operates on this like grassroots model, right? Like 80 chapters across Shorelines in the us is that a good way of. Combating this kind of like top down [00:38:00] pushback to the environmental movement that's happening in our country. Like do you think that kind of like bottom up approach is what it needs to be?

Chad: I mean, I'm biased because I've dedicated my life to that approach. Uh, wouldn't have done that if I didn't think it worked.

Paddy: Sure. Yeah, absolutely.

Chad: it's the best way to organize. And really at the end of the day, the only way to organize, you know, there's like the Margaret Mead quote that, you know, like, which I'm now of course gonna blank on, but roughly is, you know, essentially like, uh, you know, never doubt a small group of people who, who can change the world.

' 'cause it's the only ones that ever have. Cesar Chavez, you know, labor organizer, when they asked him how he, started, he's like, well, I went and talked to one person, and then I talked to another person and then I talked to another person. So I do think that like grassroots organizing.

The most powerful and effective way to create change. And, the, the naysayers are, you can't do enough, fast enough,

Paddy: right. Yeah. Yeah.

Chad: or big enough. And I'm like, well, that's really just about like organizing at a scale that leads to that. You know, we're planting dunes and wetlands [00:39:00] and mangroves today that are gonna make a difference for decades.

we're passing laws at the local and state level that are

super positive in changing the world for a better place. And we're playing defense while the federal government tries to do a bunch of bad things. And so part of the nice thing about grassroots organizing is you can kind of. get a lot done at a lot of scales of decision making,

uh, and not rely on, you know, the Trump administration and Congress to be the end all, be all to what happens now.

They have a scale that is important. The Inflation Reduction Act, the worst named Climate bill in history, was putting hundreds of billions of dollars to work to, combat climate change. Like, we'll never get to that scale through grassroots organizing, but I believe through grassroots organizing, we can build enough momentum to make things like that happen. get active locally. it's community building at a time where we're spent too much time behind screens. , You can actually really make a difference And, I think it'll make your sort of place in the world more joyful. If everybody got active a little bit locally civically, they [00:40:00] would, they would find themselves happier and feeling more meaning in their lives.

Paddy: One of the things that I find to be very difficult about any activism is this fight against like the boot and the bug, right? And not feeling like you're the bug,

surf rider historically is nonpartisan, but we live in this like, increasingly partisan world and bipartisan ship seems non-existent, how do you navigate all this? How do you not. Feel like the shadow of the boot is coming in and, and you're the bug.

Chad: Maybe to bring it full circle, it's, a result of just getting pounded on paddle outs over and over and over.

Paddy: say you've been, you've been a surfer since you were a kid. Do you think that because you've been Maytag like, like for just decades and decades, you're like, oh man, like being in the political arena ain't shit compared to like absolutely getting rocked by Mama Nature out in the ocean.[00:41:00]

Chad: I mean it, you know, it is true. I remember John, John Florence, and, like World's Greatest Surfer, posted a video on his channel of him and one of his brothers who are also amazing, trying to paddle out on the North Shore and getting sent back to the beach.

and I'm like, okay, here's like literally the best surfers in the world.

Can't, couldn't paddle out. And they got sent back to the beach and even better they posted it. Uh, you know, it was like a little nod to the rest of us who are like mere mortals that like, even those guys can't always win against the ocean.

Which I appreciated 'cause it made me feel a little better. But, uh, do think like, uh, action is the, antidote to despondency.

So like, all things like just get out there and take that first step.

MUSIC FOR A BEAT

Paddy: it is now time for the final ramble. One piece of gear you cannot live without.

Chad: the Patagonia Houdini jacket. I don't know if others have said this. Uh, I find I carry one with me everywhere. This is like their lightweight jacket.

Great. On the [00:42:00] airplane when it's too cold, great on a boat. when the breeze comes up, it's kind of shockingly warm you can stuff it in your back pocket when you're at a music festival. I take one everywhere and, uh, use it all the time.

Paddy: Oh, I'm a little shocked. You wouldn't say surfboard, but considering what just happened to your last surfboard. I totally understand.

Chad: Yeah, I, I guess I, I have many, so.

Paddy: Best outdoor snack,

Chad: I am old school. I'm a gorp guy.

Paddy: dude.

Chad: have a lot, I a lot of chocolate in it.

Paddy: Nobody has said gorp.

Chad: Really.

Paddy: shocking. Yes, this is great. Oh,

Chad: You know, nuts, raisins, chocolate.

Paddy: the

best. It's the best.

What is your hottest outdoor hot take?

Chad: The most exciting thing in surfing right now is women's professional surfing.

Paddy: Oh, tell

me more.

Chad: there is a crop of young women surfers, who Have taken a quantum leap in their sort of skills and ability. They were just at Teahupo'o people call it, uh, for the contest last week. [00:43:00] Molly Pickler, Gabriela Bryan, Katie Simers, are changing the game.

it's incredible. And then also women's big wave surfing is hitting a completely different level. So there's all these, incredible big wave surfers. So women surfing is. absolutely going next level. And it's super exciting to watch and witness and, uh, I encourage people to check it out. it's pretty extraordinary and a lot of it comes from, pay parity and giving them the same wave.

So like we see in so many sports, if we give women the opportunity to excel, they do, whether it's basketball or other things.

Paddy: so shocking that like if we pay people what they deserve and give them the same opportunity as the dudes, it's like, oh my

God. Holy hell. Good

things are happening.

Chad: yeah. So I I, I think it's like the most exciting thing happening in surfing.

Paddy: that's right. Everybody watches women's sports. That's the

deal. That's the deal.

MUSIC

PADDYO VO:

Chad Nelsen is a  surfer, PhD, the CEO of [00:44:00] the Surf Rider Foundation, and doer of much good for the ocean and the environment. If you want to check out a Surf Rider chapter near you, particpate in an event, donate to the foundation, join a plastic reduction - ocean protection - beach access or any other meaningful campaign, check out their website Surf Rider Dot Org and follow them on Instagram at Surf Rider.

And, remember sweet sweet listeners, we want to hear from ya. Email your pod reactions, guest nominations, favorite songs for breakdance fighting, and whatever else you want to tell and/or ask us to Outside Podcast At Outside Inc Dot Com.

The Outside Podcast is hosted and produced by me, Paddy O'Connell. But you can call me PaddyO. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard, Micah "my wetsuit is like a dog's thunder vest" Abrams. Music and Sound Design by Robbie Carver. And booking and [00:45:00] research by Maren Larsen.

The Outside Podcast is made possible by our Outside Plus members. Learn about all the extra rad benefits and become a member yourself at Outside Online Dot Com Slash Pod Plus.