When the Outdoors is Bad For Your Mental Health, with Cory Richards

Paddy: well, how do you know you're seeking the positive effects of solitude, not the dark appeal or negative

Cory: Mm

Paddy: of isolation from everyday life to standing on top of the roof of the world.

Cory: mm,

Paddy: and part of this is the quote from the book, A certain amount of loneliness is necessary in the service of an objective.

Cory: A very, very good question. And I think it's a complicated answer because, or, or maybe it's, maybe it's a simple answer some ways, which is just, I don't know, honestly, sometimes I just don't know. Like there's a conceptual knowledge there, but I guess it's more of a feeling. That requires that I really check in and go, wait, wait, wait. What am I doing here? Am I isolating or am I seeking quiet to find myself again? Am I trying to escape myself? Or am I trying to find myself, Am I trying to, escape my mind?

Or am I inviting my mind back into the conversation? Am I trying to find my body or escape it? You see what I mean? So it's, it's more of like a, deep practice [00:01:00] of like, what am I actually experiencing in my nervous system right now? And what's that signaling to me?

And again, see that's the thing. It's like, fuck, man. I don't know. I don't know. I want, I want to have like really clear answers for people, but to me, life is not, it's fucking murky. It's, that's why the book is called The Color of Everything. 'cause it isn't,

I don't know. I, I, God I wanna have a better answer for you so badly.

MUSIC

PADDYO VO:

Howdy, pals. Before we get into today’s chat, I need to provide some context. When I was 29 years old, I was living the dream. I skied 100-plus days each winter as a ski patroller in Colorado; I spent my summers on raft trips, hiking, biking, and sleeping under the stars. It was everything I thought I wanted, but inwardly I was a mess. My body and mind were shutting down after years of undiagnosed alcoholism, drug abuse, and suicidal ideation. In the spring of 2013, it [00:02:00] all came to a head and I nearly died. With luck, grace, and tons of help from family and friends, I got to an inpatient rehab facility in the Midwest, and started on a path to recovery.

I didn’t return to the mountains for over a year and, when I did, it was just for a couple of days. I didn’t even venture into them, just sat on a bench sipping coffee and looking at the ridgelines and peaks that I had spent my twenties exploring. I couldn’t leave the bench because I was scared—scared of what it would feel like to be in those mountains again while sober. To that point, my adulthood had been focused on building an identity as a mountain guy; my entire self worth was wrapped up in my accomplishments up there and I didn’t know who I would be without that anchor.

This is [00:03:00] a feeling that the photographer and mountaineer Cory Richards understands better than most.

PAUSE PAUSE

Even if you don’t recognize Cory’s name, you may have seen his face. His self portrait, taken moments after surviving an avalanche following a record-setting winter ascent of the Himalayan peak Gasherbrum II, is one of the more famous photographs in recent climbing history.

He comes by the fame honestly. That photo was taken in 2011, early on in a 15-year run that saw him put up new routes and first ascents on some of the world’s most challenging mountains. He wasn’t just an elite alpinist, he was an elite documentarian who produced award-winning photos and films along the way. Then, in 2021, he walked away from it all.

Cory was diagnosed bipolar at 14, and his mountaineering accomplishments rested atop a mental health foundation that was anything but sound. A few days into an [00:04:00] expedition up Dhaulagiri in Nepal, he experienced a mental health crisis that convinced him he needed to get off the mountain, and not just that mountain—all mountains. Cory quit climbing, quit photography, and moved to Los Angeles.

Since then, Cory’s published a memoir, The Color of Everything, which honestly investigates all this. He’s been on countless event stages, talk shows, and podcasts to talk about how the mountains made him who he is and how they nearly took it all away. But the one thing he hasn’t talked about is how his life has been since then and how, four years on, his relationship to the mountains and the outdoors overall has evolved.

It turns out that you can leave the mountains, but the mountains never really leave you. That sounds cliche, but—when you associate the mountains with some of the lowest points in your life—it leads to a much [00:05:00] more interesting question: is that a good thing or a bad thing?

MUSIC

Paddy: PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

First things first, burnt toast. What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment outside?

Cory: Oh wow.

well, honestly, I need to get outside more. Since moving to la like getting outside is, is actually, um, it's taken sort of a backseat and, and specifically recently I've been like, holy shit, dude. Where is like, you have to reengage. So my burnt toast is like, I live in la that's my burnt toast.

Paddy: So

Cory: That.

Paddy: is the camping on the 4 0 5?

Cory: Yeah. Well, exactly. That's what we call morning commute. You're just camping basically. It's slow camping, slow car camping. Yeah.

Paddy: So you last humbling experience outside is sitting in traffic wishing that you were in fact, somewhere

Cory: Outside. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paddy: I'm excited. Let's get into it.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

I wanna start with [00:06:00] something that I did with another famous climber after reading her memoir, Melissa Arnot Reed.

I wanna start things off with some fun word association.

Cory: I love these. Oh yeah. I love these.

Paddy: no filter. just fire away.

Cory: All right.

Paddy: Alta..

Cory: Brother.

Paddy: Crampons.

Cory: It's not one word, but like, holes in my calf from like, and like muscle hanging out of like the holes in my calf. Yeah.

Paddy: Okay.

Cory: Yeah.

Paddy: Gross. Gross

Summit

Cory: paradoxical.

Paddy: Oxygen

Cory: Needless,

Paddy: Cigarettes

Cory: delicious.

Paddy: Everest

Cory: Hm.

Complicated.

Paddy: Gasherbrum II

Cory: Tired.

Paddy: brain.

Cory: Tired.

Paddy: Paul Simon,

Cory: Dad

Paddy: go gently.

Cory: also. Dad

Paddy: Family.

Cory: Alta

Paddy: Nice. Love

Cory: everything.

Paddy: Cory.

Cory: That one doesn't have a word right now.

Paddy: Alright. Alright. I'm excited for this.

Cory: Yeah.

I like it when you're excited. It gets me excited.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: I think we're [00:07:00] catching you at this like, very interesting time. You know, you've been in the public eye since your twenties. The catalog of your expeditions and your photography has been available for public consumption for nearly two decades.

Cory: Mm-hmm.

Paddy: w your life as well, you've been

Cory: Yeah.

Paddy: open about, your mental health, throughout your career, especially in the memoir. The color of everything is deeply honest. And I think the public knows you essentially up to 2021 when you retired from climbing. maybe what they don't know is that like, have have you actually done anything that resembles traditional retirement? have you taken up knitting? Are you doing endless house projects? Do you golf? Are you in a

Cory: yeah,

Paddy: league? How is retirement actually treating you?

Cory: yeah. Retirement. I mean, what a funny word to say that I retired is really, is, it's a misnomer. I walked away and I would even say I walked away for a time because there's certainly a piece of me that, that's [00:08:00] curious about going back that wants to go back to the mountains that wants to take pictures again.

They, you know, those things don't die. But like, I'm not currently golfing. Um, I have, I have been bowling actually. Um. Yeah, I actually love bowling. I, you know, one of the things that I've been trying to do is, you know, you do all this really kind of serious shit,, and I really believe that the outdoor community is, so beautiful, but also very, very self important.

And, you know, like we're all concerned with the fastest known time on Strava, right? And I think there's, at least I'll speak for myself, there was a point where I started to, to lose sense of what real joy was. And so since letting go of those things and stepping out of an identity, or at least trying to shed layers of it, I've really been like, where do I find play again?

Like, where do I find joy? Because I lost it in those arenas. And so I'm like, what do normal people do? Like seriously, what do normal people do? [00:09:00] I'm like, I'm gonna go bowling.

Paddy: yeah. Go bowling, go to the movies, go for a like a day hike.

Cory: Yeah,

Paddy: of sweaty. Don't bring 27 duffle bags with you every time that you go

Cory: get moist. Just moist. Yeah.

Paddy: what I'm kind of joking at here is that you spent your adulthood on so many expeditions, you might actually have one of the most used passports of all time

Cory: Yeah,

Paddy: something like nine months out of every year for a decade or more, or something like that,

Cory: yeah.

Paddy: corners of this earth to do the most extreme outdoor challenges in the mountains. So what does your daily outdoor time actually look like now? .

Cory: I live five blocks from the beach, so, I've learned the joy of walking. literally just being outside, and being surrounded by the, the oddity that is Venice Beach, you know, the boardwalk, uh, which which is its own very special kind of nature.

You know? Uh, [00:10:00] you are in nature, you are in the jungle, there's just buildings. Being outside to me now has taken on a very different texture. I do love to surf and getting in the water is really special. I'm not great at it. I'm a beginner again. when I say surfing, it's more like getting Maytag'd and occasionally getting like two seconds, you know, up.

Paddy: couple times. You've described every time I've been surfing.

Cory: Yeah. It's just eating sand that should I, I'm gonna go eat sand this morning.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: When's the last time you spent multiple nights in a sleeping bag?

Cory: Hmm. It's been years. It's been years. Um, yeah, it's been years.

Paddy: How does that feel?

Cory: Not good. Um, like, it's just not, I will really say this because I think it's important. Um, it's something that I'm learning is that I is, because I grew up outside because we, we were outside so much, and then it became my entire life, I never understood the importance of the role it was actually playing, being in [00:11:00] contact with nature that much.

And there is a very, very deeply, uh, generative impact, of that intimacy with what, you know, the organic world Now. Conversely, one of the things that I've really tried to do is to see all of this as nature because I think we, think of nature as like where there's no buildings and there's no telephone poles and that.

But if you back out far enough, you can't actually fundamentally be outside of nature. Earth is an organic thing spinning through space, and there's a real beauty in being able to, open yourself to the, to the reality that when you're standing in the middle of New York City, you are standing in the middle of nature.

Like at, at one of its most extreme expressions. Actually, it's no less extreme an expression of nature than the summit of Everest is. It's just different. I'm not saying it's the same thing as laying in a tent, laying in a sleeping bag, but I do believe there's value in being able to open [00:12:00] yourself to that degree where you can be standing in witness of what is, and that, that all of this is natural.

Paddy: Well, having said that, having adopted that perception of all things nature, we are always in nature. Do you feel like that is. Enough for someone like you who used to spend so much time in a tent at base camp doing the most extreme things that you could possibly do in the mountains, like do you feel like, yes, I enjoy this perspective, that all things are in nature, and yet I do have a bit of an itch?

Cory: Oh, I definitely have an itch. I absolutely have an itch.

Paddy: How do you scratch that

Cory: Um, ineffectively at this point. Um, no, it's truly, it's such a funny question that you're bringing it up because whether you wanna call it the universe, the world, whatever, there are things being asked of me right now that, demand my attention and one of them is a return to the organic world.

Um, more frequently. My, [00:13:00] my most recent like, sort of really fun expedition, if you can even call it, that, was a motorcycle trip with, uh, Ben Ayers where we rode motorcycles from Katmandu into the kingdom of Mustang and, all the way up to the Tibetan Plateau. And

Paddy: When was this?

Cory: I was like

almost two years ago. . And it was just three dudes on motorcycles

in the Himalayas, you know?

Paddy: So with something like that, when you get out there, you're like, ah, does it feel like you, it's, a sense of

Cory: I

Paddy: a sense of relief. And then when you return from that back to your home now in la are you like, this is still good, I'm good here in la or is it like, uh, I

Cory: it.

Paddy: out.

Cory: It's both. I like to think , the most important journeys all of us can take is finding home wherever we are and finding home in ourselves. But when I'm in nature, it feels like a homecoming. It feels like a return. It feels like an exhale.

Paddy: mm-hmm.

Cory: And at the same time, there is a similar exhale. when I, unpack the last thing out of my [00:14:00] bag and I close the last drawer and I fold the last piece of laundry and put it away.

And I listen to the same silence that, that I can find outside that exists in my little apartment here, you know? but to, to, I mean, to, without being so flowery. Look, I fucking miss being outside. I do.

Paddy: yeah.

Cory: I miss it.

Paddy: are you making a plan for anything?

Cory: I've been talking to Adrian a little bit, Adrian Ballinger about going back to a big mountain. I, what I know is I want to go back to 8,000 meters. I want to go back to the big peaks. I have no interest necessarily in doing something new on like, you know, like going back to some level of alpinism that I watched my friends keep doing is not interesting.

But to me, I love being on just in those mountains. I love being on those peaks. There is something that is. Absolutely incomparable anywhere else on the planet to being above 8,000 meters. and I love it. And, and there's also a piece of me that's really curious about doing it alone.

Paddy: [00:15:00] Really?

Cory: yeah. Yeah. I, I like uh, I like being alone up there.

Paddy: why?

Cory: Hmm. It feels pure, it feels elemental, it feels quiet, like the most quiet I can get.

Paddy: Externally or internally

or both?

Cory: well, both because I think what's happening for me when I'm up there alone is that there's a necessary reduction in, what I can be paying attention to. That doesn't mean my brain isn't going all over the place and fucking thinking about a million things.

It just means there's a reduction that demands a certain level of quiet within myself. and the space, the environment itself, allows for that quiet to, deepen and

Paddy: Because the stakes are so high, and you have to be so focused.

Cory: yeah, I think so. Look, one of the most special experiences of my life and I, and I talk about it in the book and it's, it's very paradoxical. when I was on Everest in 2016 and Adrian turned around that [00:16:00] morning, that was one of the most.

Clear stretches of hours in my life where I think it was, yeah, I don't remember the exact timing, but maybe it was three 30 or four when he turned around. And there were so few people on the north side of the mountain that day. Most people had had already summited. We were coming up a little bit later and as I got up onto the Summit Ridge, there was a, a Norwegian gal coming down with her climbing partner.

and then I was alone, like I, passed another group, you know, like 20 minutes, 30 minutes before. But aside from that, there was, there was just nobody else there. And so then I ended up alone on the summit. You know, without oxygen and I knew it at the time, but I didn't know it.

That is so incredibly fucking unique.

It just doesn't happen. 'cause most people are a, they're climbing with other people. Right. And you might get it, so it's just your party on the summit. but b, there's also so many people doing it [00:17:00] now. Right. And so , just to be there completely alone. And not alone in a way where like, you walked up with your friends and then they kind of, like, they walk down and you're just, you hang out for another minute to be there where there's literally no, there's just, there's, there's nobody around.

Paddy: Mm.

Cory: the mix of solitude and isolation. was sort of deafening. and, and there's a piece of me that longs for that again.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: One of the things that really stood out to me about your book is the duality. You examine in the battle between the difference of isolation and solitude.

Cory: Yeah.

Paddy: us who go outside, we want to get this expansive sense of solitude. 'cause that can

Cory: Mm-hmm.

Paddy: it could be meditative, it can be calming.

Cory: Mm-hmm.

Paddy: folks like you and I, who have a deep history of mental health struggles, the call for solitude can really sometimes be, I feel, a camouflage [00:18:00] call for isolation, which is, I think, potentially really dangerous.

Cory: Mm-hmm.

Paddy: How do you tell the difference?

Cory: Uh, I mean, it's still a learning process. , you know, I think we want to categorize things so definitively we wanna make these declarations.

Being outside to me is all about solitude. Well, maybe that's true for that person. For me, I can go from solitude to isolation in a matter of minutes on any given day, and, and giving myself permission to be in that space, rather than trying to make it one thing or another, I think is actually where the most growth comes from.

And rather than looking at one of them as. Necessarily bad, or good. It's just looking at, oh, well, right now I feel very isolated. And then the shift whenever it happens is, well, now I just feel this deep sense of reverence and peace and solitude, but not trying to make it one thing or the other, which is so common

Paddy: well, how do you know you're seeking the positive effects of solitude, not the dark appeal or negative

Cory: Mm

Paddy: [00:19:00] of isolation from everyday life to standing on top of the roof of the world.

Cory: mm,

Paddy: and part of this is the quote from the book, A certain amount of loneliness is necessary in the service of an objective.

Cory: mm-hmm.

Paddy: I would love to hear you explain that

Cory: so, I mean, it's a very, very good question. And I think it's a complicated answer because, or, or maybe it's, maybe it's a simple answer some ways, which is just, I don't know, honestly, sometimes I just don't know. Like there's a conceptual knowledge there, but I guess it's more of a feeling. That requires that I really check in and go, wait, wait, wait. What am I doing here? Am I isolating or am I seeking quiet to find myself again? Am I trying to escape myself? Or am I trying to find myself, Am I trying to, escape my mind?

Or am I inviting my mind back into the conversation? Am I trying to find my body or escape it? You see what I mean? So it's, it's more of like a, deep practice of like, what am I actually [00:20:00] experiencing in my nervous system right now? And what's that signaling to me?

And again, see that's the thing. It's like, fuck, man. I don't know. I don't know. I want, I want to have like really clear answers for people, but to me, life is not, it's fucking murky. It's, that's why the book is called The Color of Everything. 'cause it isn't,

I don't know. I, I, God I wanna have a better answer for you so badly.

Paddy: I hear, I hear what you're saying. I guess. Well, how about this? Let's take it outta the abstract. Let's put it

Cory: Right? Right.

Paddy: of, the gritty dirt

in your phone calls with Adrian right

Cory: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Paddy: dreaming up what may happen, what about this potential trip with Adrian makes you say.

Cory: Right.

Paddy: I'm just scratching an itch. I just want to get back to the mountains. I wanna stand at 8k. I wanna take some beautiful photos and makes you feel like this is a safe call for for me, my body, and my brain.

Cory: well, I think what makes it feel like a safe call for me is, the, ease I [00:21:00] feel when I think about being there. You know, it's like when you think about, You're like, oh, I wanna go for a run. And it's like, I wanna go for a run because of the ease I feel when I'm moving through, through nature and through I'm moving in my body.

And so when I imagine that, you know, you're like, you're so fucking abstract. Get outta your head,

Paddy: laughing because at 6 5 250 pounds and I am a runner,

Cory: right? Yeah,

Paddy: but at my size, I don't know if I've ever felt an ease of running

Cory: yeah. Right, right, right.

Paddy: I hear what you're saying.

I feel like we're catching it at this moment where you're like, ah, I gotta get out there,

Cory: Yeah. There's no seeking in it anymore. That's, that. Maybe that's a good way to answer that. Am I seeking, or am I curious? And if I'm curious, that feels like a healthy place to go from if I'm seeking that feels potentially might be less healthy, it might be a little more dangerous.

But I also think that the, what's interesting about the actual place that you're catching me is, an uncertainty about where I belong in the world. And a big piece of that is fueled by, [00:22:00] um, you know, uh, grief my dad died this spring and, I lost a, a real true love you know, for the past eight months I've been, I think, kind of distracting myself from the reality of, what needs to be processed and felt. And so you're catching me in a moment where all things are possible there's actually deep uncertainty about what fits best.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: I was flying home from,, Geneva yesterday. and I was getting on the flight in the morning and I've been going through this, real grief process and,, I was sitting there and I was crying, like significantly crying on the airplane, you know?

Cory: And I didn't have anybody next to me and I was just sort of actually, uh, weeping and I was dropping into. My dad, you know, and just, and just how much I miss my dad. and I, went pretty deep and then I was like, well, I should check my emails as one does. And when you're, when you're deep and you know, let me distract myself, you, yeah.[00:23:00]

Let me get out of this for a second. And I open an email from somebody who's, making a short doc on the Albach, which was my dad's climbing club back in the late fifties and early sixties that really sort of opened up a lot of the climbing in little Conwood Canyon. And he said, Hey, here's this interview that I did with your dad.

Um,

Paddy: That's

Cory: literally there just like immersed in grief and, intentionally feeling into the depth of that pain. And then I open my email and there's a Vimeo link and I open it and there's my, dad. And he's talking about, climbing and the discovering, climbing in the Wasatch and, putting up these routes and, you know, like in little Cottonwood and stuff.

And, and, uh, and, and I, and I just, I just put my headphones on and I just let it play. And I just listened, to this voice that, no longer is living. And I, and I listened to him tell me the same stories that I've heard a million [00:24:00] fucking times that we're so annoying when he was alive.

Paddy: Sure.

Cory: And now all I want is to hear him tell them again and again and again.

And I just listened to it on the airplane. I've listened to him. And my, by the way, my dad was one of the worst interviews ever.

Paddy: Oh,

Cory: motherfucker could not answer a question. He, he, you think I'm abstract. He would just expand on a story and keep going. And you're like, dude, where are you?

Like, where are we? And he's, you know, all of a sudden he's in Europe with John Harlan. And I mean, it was just,

Paddy: asked you what your favorite color was, man.

Cory: yeah, yeah, exactly. There was a point in the interview where the guy's like, okay, I just need a clean, like my name's Court Richards, you know, I'm from Salt Lake City. And he's like, you know, he could not, he could not fucking do it.

He's like, my name's Court Richards. I grew up in Salt Lake City. I, uh, moved to Montana. You [00:25:00] know, you're just like, dude, just, just your name. But it was, but it was so beautiful to just, to listen to him.

PUASE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: Do you feel like a bit a bit of this itch to, get back into the mountains in, a way that you feel is celebratory, is a, Way to have more moments like that with your dad.

Cory: It's a really good question, I think. Yes. Yes. I think, for me to connect with my dad, more would ask that I spend more time just, being outside, towards the end of his life, he, you know, he, he was less mobile.

In fact, in the interview he just breaks down and he just talks about how frustrated he is because he can't change the battery on a fucking clock. Meanwhile, he's being interviewed about doing new routes on, you know, this pristine granite in the Wasatch. Right? I would, I would ask him if he could go anywhere and, and do something, you know, and he would just burst into tears and talk about, oh, I just wish I could stand in, you know, stand, just be on the summit of Pan [00:26:00] Gora again.

Or I wish I could go back to, Chamonix and just stand there and smell it and sleep on a ledge. And he would just, he would cry. And, and so I, to answer your question, I think for me to connect with him and certainly to connect with myself because I am him and he is me in very real ways, doing those things would, would bring me closer to him

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

PADDYO VO:

More from Cory Richards after the break.

MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL

Paddy: You stepped away from climbing in a way that, was courageous and that you needed to do 'cause you felt unsafe unsafe. but it also sounds like to me right now what you're feeling is. A way to honor your dad and how he felt towards the end of his life yeah.

And this is something that athletes, especially mountain folks have to deal with, is that my mind and my heart still have it, but my legs don't. And it

Cory: Hmm.

Paddy: one of the things that you're feeling is like, my mind and my heart can get there while my legs still [00:27:00] have it.

Cory: Yeah.

Paddy: to get out there because of messages like that from your dad?

Cory: Yeah, I do. I do. I think there's a subtle reminder or not so subtle reminder that. Like, do it while you have the ability, do it while you have the capability. Do it while you're strong. None of us, none of us believe that we're ever gonna get to that, that we know it, we know it conceptually when we see an old person walking down the street, but we don't actually fucking fundamentally believe we're gonna get there.

We can't. It's because, because it be, it's too overwhelming for the human psyche to really understand that we're going to age and die out. It comes back to, to what you're asking about my dad, I really do think that there's this piece of me that's hearing him potentially saying, do, do it, do it now. Because there is a time where your body starts to not want to, it can't do it anymore. You said it so beautifully, your mind and your heart still have it, but your legs don't.

What I'm [00:28:00] experiencing right now in some ways is like, my legs have it, but my heart, my mind kind of don't, but it's be, they're being pulled back there. I was driving up San Vicente, I could just, I just got overwhelmed with the smell of being at 8,000 meters. And I'm at sea level, I'm just like, what the fuck was that? And I could just taste the water. I could smell the, like, the tent, I could smell the sort of like the smell of wet gloves and boots and like down Yeah. Glove. It's, but somehow I do, I fucking love it.

And that's almost what I miss more than anything is like, you know, you, uh, for climbers they'll rec, they'll, they'll know this smell. Skiers will know you take off your gloves and the smell of your hands at the end of the day. Yeah, it's kind of rank and weird, but god, it's so visceral. Or climbing on granite in little cotton ca climbing on granite anywhere and you stop to take a pee.

The smell of that is [00:29:00] so distinct and, and I'll tell you what, I fucking long for it right now.

Paddy: that's the

Cory: It's,

Paddy: of all soundbites. What do you miss?

Cory: it's.

Paddy: the pee smell, man.

Cory: The pee on granite.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: Something that's intriguing here about physicality is that I have to imagine in your retirement, in your stepping away from climbing, potentially a very difficult thing is to not be celebrated anymore for your very incredible physical prowess in the mountains. Because

Cory: Hmm

Paddy: that so much on the regular,

Cory: hmm.

Paddy: was that, is that difficult?

Cory: It's a, again, really beautiful question. It is difficult actually, but I built a career on the celebration of those things, but internally. I never really felt like a very great athlete, and I wrote about it in the book. I never felt like I was an exceptional athlete. I surrounded myself with exceptional athletes and I did [00:30:00] that intentionally.

And It was almost like a skills-based exchange because what I can offer those athletes who were truly exceptional was the thing that they needed to continue to fuel those, those ambitions, right? And by virtue of that, I got better, but I never felt like I was actually a great athlete. So while a lot of my career was, built on that, it almost at times felt a little fraudulent for me.

You know, like, I'm like, yeah, like I, I, I'm not, that, I'm not that exceptional. Now, some people would argue that point with me, Right.

Paddy: does not read as like pretty run of the mill, bro. You know? You

Cory: you are, you're right. It doesn't, I just don't feel it necessarily.

Paddy: Well, you also built your career on not just these physical pursuits, but the telling of the stories behind

Cory: Mm-hmm.

Paddy: pursuits for both you and the people around you.

Cory: [00:31:00] Mm-hmm.

Paddy: Do you still feel a pull to tell those stories

Cory: I don't feel a pole to tell the stories of mountain culture anymore. that's not where my pull is I do feel a pull to tell stories in general and celebrate the things that potentially drive those people to do those things. That's what I'm more interested in I wanna mind deeper Like what Colin Haley just did down in Patagonia is so exceptional.

You know, soloing Sarah Torre, like, that is an exceptional athlete, right? That is truly exceptional. Jim Morrison skiing, the hornbein, kui

Paddy: 50 degrees at 50 years old,

Cory: that is those people,

Paddy: What? What?

Cory: That's truly exceptional. Athleticism. What I did by comparison is, is actually. Pretty mild. Um, but but I guess what I'm saying in that is that in terms of the storytelling, there's brilliant people to tell those stories.

[00:32:00] Jimmy Chin, he should tell that story all fucking day long. I have no business there. I'm more curious about telling the stories of, the everyday person to make them feel exceptional

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: in the book you have a quote, adventure storytelling trades on the proximity to death. And I want to dig into that because so much of what

Cory: Hmm.

Paddy: read, watch, and listen to in outdoor media are stories about, you know, super gnarly bro does super gnarly thing because they're super gnarly. And some of those stories are amazing,

Cory: Yeah.

Paddy: are inspiring, some are cliche or rote, some seem empty. And often the reaction is either to lionize these folks for their mountain accomplishments or demonize them those same pursuits. Knowing what you know today, considering the fact that you were at the. Top of the top in terms of mountain athletics and storytelling in the mountains. And you said, this isn't actually it for [00:33:00] me. It's

Cory: Mm-hmm.

Paddy: filling me up in the way that I need. Do you think that these stories are actually inspiring is the juice worth the squeeze?

Cory: I do think they're inspiring, you know? Because as, as much as I don't think about the, the things that I did in everyday life, when it comes up for other people, it's very inspiring to them. So there is value in it. There's absolutely value in people doing these things. This is how we push the, the human species forward.

It's when the caveman says, Hey man, hold my beer. I'm gonna try something and climbs, you know, and, and does the does the first V five, right? And,

Paddy: Yeah.

Cory: um, and it, and it expands. It expands our, our potential. And you see, you watch humanity continue to expand its potential. and it continues to, bend the nature of what we think is possible.

When Alex climbed, um. Uh, El Cap when he free solo at El Cap, that, that changed sport forever. I think what [00:34:00] Jim just did had will, will change ski mountaineering. I think, uh, mark, Andre, Le Clare, like these people, I, they're the same as Roger Banister, who, you know, broke the four minute mile.

And, um, and what that does is it,

Paddy: way to think about it.

Cory: yeah, I mean, that's what they're doing. They're breaking the four minute mile and that is worthwhile, that pushes humanity forward. It expands curiosity. What are we actually fucking capable of? That's what's fascinating to me.

Not the individual stories necessarily, but the collective story of humanity, of what can we actually fucking do? And these are just building blocks that we be, that we, that we just keep stacking. So in that way, I think it's absolutely inspiring. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Well, it actually kind of doesn't matter

Paddy: Why?

Cory: because people are gonna do it.

We're designed to do it. People are always gonna go out and they're always gonna push the, the, the edges of what's [00:35:00] possible. Whether it's driven from a place of self hatred or self love, whether it's driven from a place of ignorance or or deep curiosity, it doesn't fucking matter.

The fact that they're gonna do it is gonna always exist. It always has. It's what's pushed us across oceans and to the highest places on the planet and to the fucking bottom of the Mariana Trench that drive is innate. So is the juice worth the squeeze? Well, I would say as evidenced by the trajectory of humanity, absolutely it is.

But on an individual level, when somebody goes out and dies doing it, is the juice worth the squeeze? I, I don't know.

PAUSE PAUSE PASUE PAUSE

Paddy: Everything you just said, you touch on really beautifully in your memoir, which is itself a different type of outdoor story. you cover your incredible mountain accomplishments as well as giving this very gripping, and at times heartbreaking look behind the curtain of adventure. And I wanna [00:36:00] talk about the book hopefully in a way that you haven't before. I know you've talked endlessly about the opening scene.

Cory: Mm-hmm.

Paddy: avalanche that you

Cory: Mm-hmm.

Paddy: I've been in some very sketchy, deeply scary moments in the snow. I've never been catapulting down the face of one of the world's tallest mountains thinking that I'm about to die. But the way that you describe the scene and the way that the traumatic accident is then integrated in the pages of the book into your lifelong mental health path feels very much how I felt in my twenties when I was

Cory: Mm-hmm.

Paddy: of depression, alcoholism, addiction, suicidal ideation. There's the obvious immediate trauma of the avalanche.

Cory: Mm-hmm.

Paddy: it came to represent about your life and why you chose to open the book with it? Is it the perfect, albeit terrifying and brutal representation of your life with bipolar?

Cory: hmm. I haven't thought of it that way, but yeah, I could put it that way. I Could interpret it , that way. I think maybe that's, that's actually a really interesting and Wise [00:37:00] way of viewing it. , And you know what else I'd say is that I think it's an invitation into the idea that, and I'm borrowing a phrase here, but sometimes when we think we've been buried, we've actually been planted,

A seed has to go underground before it can come out. , It has to live in darkness, most seeds, , in, you know, a nebulous sort of environment, to actually grow. And what's interesting about that is it's in that darkness that it gathers all the nutrients, right?

starts pushing up and taking root. In fact, what it does is it reaches deeper down into the darkness

Paddy: Hmm.

Cory: to create the foundations of strength that will allow it to push up and become what it does above ground. And so in that moment, I mean, and this is, maybe it's a little too on the nose, but I was nearly buried and also I was planted.

because that moment. was the inflection point of a catastrophic rise in my career and my public facing life. [00:38:00] And it was also the moment where at least all the seeds of my childhood that had been planted were fertilized, watered, and blossomed into something so monstrous at times that it felt inescapable.

And quite frankly, this is something I, I, I wanna be very clear with people like still does, like this is an ongoing fucking journey. People think like, oh, you've got it all figured out now, and it fuck no man. Like,

Paddy: like, oh yeah, I talked about it in the therapy that, uh, like that thing one time and I put it

Cory: yeah,

Paddy: filed it away with, uh, the stuff that's done and I don't ever have to do. No, it shows up in weird insidious ways traumatic moments never go away. They change and they morph and it's like a dial.

Cory: yeah,

Paddy: And you seek the help to get the tools to turn that dial.

Cory: yeah. To turn them. 'cause you never want it to go away. Look, we don't want trauma to not exist. I, that's bullshit. Like trauma shapes us and it informs us. And trauma is not the event. It's how we interpret it and, and how it [00:39:00] expresses later in our lives. Right? And ultimately the goal is, in my opinion is, to move beyond the identifying with it.

And that's one of the things that's so tricky about the book is like for me it was very much like writing my way out of the story. But then it becomes the story and then you have to keep identifying with the thing. And that's

One of the tricky things about all of this, discussion around trauma is that oftentimes we get lost in the story of it. And ultimately the goal is just to let go. Just to be like, that's a thing that happened. It doesn't inform me anymore. It's a point on my map, but it's not how I navigate where I'm at now.

Paddy: That is why the dealing with it is so important because it

Cory: Right.

Paddy: becomes the invisible rudder directing your life.

Cory: The invisible rudder, what a beautiful way to say it.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: And so the snow settles, right? You realize that you're alive and you instinctively take your camera out and snap a self [00:40:00] portrait. It's a very, very, very famous photo. What do you believe that that photo represented at the time and over the next few years, and what does it represent today, right now? When I look at photos of myself in my twenties, in the mountains,

Cory: Hmm.

Paddy: I'm living the ski bum dream in Telluride. I've got a huge smile on my face. I'm never not wearing plaid or Sunny's on the outside of my beanie, but in

Cory: Yeah.

Paddy: who is living with immense, immense pain.

Cory: Yeah.

Paddy: I see the struggle, and I can feel it. And I'm wondering if today, when you look at that photo, this very, very famous photo of you, if you see that at all, if you have a similar reaction.

Cory: Oh yeah, I do, I, I see somebody who in that moment was trying to unwind a million different things that had come crashing down and so what I see now in that photograph is somebody who's trying to make sense of something that can't be made sense of, which is death [00:41:00] itself and the totality of life that leads up to it.

And so, yes, there's profound pain in my eyes. But I do remember taking it and also like, no bullshit. I remember taking the photo and being like. I'm sure I look like a badass right now. I mean, there was, there was vanity. I mean, there's, there's raw humanity and vanity in that moment too. Right? Our humanness is so much bigger than we make it.

And we, we reduce it down to these little soundbites. And people think of me as this person in this photograph. And, and yes, it is me. And yes, I see pain and yes, I see everything that you said about the photos you see in your twenties. I see profound unresolved things. and I also see somebody who was just a 29-year-old kid who got invited to go to a mountain and got hit by a wall of snow and knew that he had ice on his beard and was like, I bet I look kind of cool right now.

Like I, I mean, you know, like I,

Paddy: yeah,

Cory: It's the depth and the lightness. It's all at fucking once.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: Let's talk about [00:42:00] love. Because there are so many mentions of it in the book from. The phrase, I love you being an ever sought after thing

Cory: Mm-hmm.

Paddy: that saying it often, especially in the mountains, doesn't diminish its meaning, but amplifies it facts. I believe that

Cory: Yeah.

Paddy: to the extremes that you went to find love and to feel love, from mountain pursuits, to drug use, to drinking, to sex, to how you interact with your family.

What does love mean to you today? What does the phrase I love you mean to you today?

Cory: I've come to understand love, like basically everything is this. There's only one sort of emotion. And that emotion, if we can even call it that, is love.

And you view it like a prism. Like the cover of the Pink Floyd album, there is the bright white, pure light, and that is love. then it gets thrust through the prism of experience and life and it comes out in a myriad of different ways. Our love gets pressed upon in one way. It gets cut at, it gets lost, it gets um, it gets [00:43:00] celebrated, it gets lifted up. There's a quote in the book by Leonard Cohen. He says, we are not mad. We are human. We want love and someone must forgive us. The paths we take to love for the paths are many and dark, and we are ardent and cruel in our journey.

Paddy: The myth of your own unlovability and

Cory: Mm-hmm.

Paddy: pursuit

Cory: Yeah.

Paddy: outside of yourself.

Cory: Mm-hmm. Mm

Paddy: for an external remedy to cure an internal conflict is so brutally described in the book.

In the healing that you've done over the years, do you believe now, do you know now that you are worthy of love?

Cory: Sometimes, some days, today, I'm not sure but that's just today and, and it doesn't have to be the story always. I'm just aware that on this day I'm like, Ugh, God, I don't, you know, I don't really feel worthy of love today. And that's okay.

Paddy: It's ok but Also want to let you know that your, brain is lying to you today, and I wanna let you know, I wanna let [00:44:00] you know that you are in fact, worthy of love today and every day yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Cory: Thank you. Thank you. And I would say the same thing to everybody else. I would say the same if somebody said exactly what I just said to you, I would say You're all, you're always worthy of love. but we don't always feel the things that we know to be true.

And we don't always feel the things that other people know to be true about us.

Paddy: That is correct.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

The mission of this podcast is to investigate the surprising impacts of a life spent outdoors, mostly, in fact, I'd say overwhelmingly so. We hear from folks about the positive influence the mountains. Have had on them, but I'm wondering, after all that you've been through everything that you've seen felt experienced, has the surprise been that the outdoors has actually had a negative impact on your life?

Cory: The surprise has been that it has been equally as positive as potentially negative at times. \ It's come in equal measure for me, , [00:45:00] but. I would not say that it's been net negative by any means. You know, like, look, my life is, I'm, I'm sitting here talking with you today. I have a platform because I went outside and I fucking did it, and I did it to the, the highest level I could.

And I loved so much about it. And there were so many beautiful things that it gave to me. And as much as it was a mechanism to escape, it was also a mechanism to find, you know? And so there's no right or wrong. There's no good or bad in it. There is simply there outside that we explore and what it brings to us.

And it can be a multitude of things. We tell the stories of, like, I, and then I went outside and I found myself, you know? And it's like, it's too fucking reductive, man. It's not actually honest, at least for me, and so, it's definitely not been net negative.

And if I had to say was it more positive or more negative, I would, I even, I'm contradicting myself now. I would say it has been definitely more [00:46:00] positive. I'm just very aware of how it also, fed and was directed by the dark passenger at times.

Paddy: One of the beautiful lines in the book that also hits like a thousand pound hammer to your heart is, I'm haunted by what I hide, and scared that if I show the world everything, I'll be erased.

Cory: Hmm.

Paddy: Oof. that could sum up my childhood, my twenties. Do you have any advice for folks who are wrestling with their own past may be looking for healing in the mountains and not finding it

Cory: Hmm.

Paddy: running away from ghosts, their their own ghosts in the mountains? Do you have some words for those folks?

Cory: I would say it's not the mountains, it's community.

Paddy: Hmm.

Cory: There are a lot of things to be found in the mountains, but I think most of what we find is each other. I think most healing happens in community. What can be so generative about the outdoors is the community that gathers in it and around [00:47:00] it.

that's where we start to repair and return is not in solitude, but in, in collectiveness so that's what I would say is what you're looking for is connection.

Paddy: Yeah.

Cory: not accomplishment.

Yeah.

Paddy: That's the God, that's the hammer right there. I truly believe, that life is a team sport, especially when life becomes a contact sport.

Cory: Mm-hmm.

And life is always a contact sport.

Paddy: that's right.

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

So It is now time for the final ramble. piece of gear you can't live without.

Cory: Hmm. Ooh, one piece of gear I can't live without. I'm trying to think of something, uh, something. I mean, Jesus, I fuck.

Paddy: I already love this answer.

Cory: I mean, like, a way to record my thoughts. I was, you know, you could say something like, as simple as a pencil or something like that, but truly it's any way to record my thoughts that could be a journal.

It could be my phone, it could be a [00:48:00] voice memo, but like a way that's an essential piece of gear.

Paddy: Nobody has said something like that. Nice. Well done.

Cory: Love it.

Paddy: best outdoor snack.

Cory: Shit.

Paddy: Oh, this is gonna be great.

Cory: No, it's not. 'cause I'm not gonna say it out loud. I'm not gonna say it. I'm not gonna say that one. Um, I'll get, I'll get canceled. Um, yeah. Uh, um, I'll let people's minds wander. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Uh, so it's in a probes, but I, who knows, nobody knows what I was gonna say. So, um, uh, honestly, like my favorite outdoor snack remains to this day. a Snickers bar. And maybe that's 'cause my childhood, right? Like growing up, like that was the thing that, you know, on a long day climbing, my dad would like, just here.

And it was, it was everything. It was fat and sugar and fucking like carbs and you're just like, ah.

Paddy: What is your hottest outdoor hot take?

Cory: anybody who [00:49:00] says they're, they're climbing Everest to raise awareness for anything and as fundraising on the back of that, um, probably just, just, just should I, I, I don't want to be too mean here, but I'm like, just sh just shut the fuck up. You don't like, it's not. It.

No, you, you, you're doing it to go cl you wanna climb Everest? Just say it. You know, like, like, don't, it's okay. It's okay. You don't be like, we are trying to cure cancer. Like, you're not, you're actually not. And in fact, the, the amount of money you're gonna spend to go do that donated to like the Huntsman Center in Utah for cancer research would actually do a lot more for people.

Just, just shut the fuck up. Just shut up.

Paddy: spicy.

Cory: yeah, yeah,

Paddy: that question. Oh,

Cory: yeah,

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

Cory Richards used to climb and photograph mountains. Maybe he will again some day. For [00:50:00] now, he's a speaker, an author, and an artist, trying to get better at surfing and find some time to sleep in a tent, rather than camp in LA traffic. Check out his latest artwork, photos and adventures from the past, and current haps on his website Cory Richards Dot Com. You can also buy his books there, including his very wonderful memoir, The Color Of Everything. It is a stupendous read. You can also follow him on Instagram at Cory Richards.

And, pals, remember that we want to hear from you, because we love you and your ear holes so very much. Sooo, email your pod reactions, guest nominations, whether or not you think GORP needs to make an outdoorsy snacking comeback, and whatever else you want to tell and/or ask us to Outside Podcast At Outside Inc Dot Com.

The Outside Podcast is hosted and produced by me, [00:51:00] Paddy O'Connell. But you can call me PaddyO. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard, Micah "Can We Just Call Them 26k Peaks?" Abrams. Music and Sound Design by Robbie Carver. And booking and research by Maren Larsen.

The Outside Podcast is made possible by our Outside Plus members. Learn about all the extra rad benefits and become a member yourself at Outside Online Dot Com Slash Pod Plus.