What You Can Learn From the Biggest Failure in Endurance Sports, with Epic Bill Bradley

Bill Bradley Ep Draft

[00:00:00]

Bill Bradley: I always liked running. I started doing triathlons and marathons, but I never did a 50 mile or anything.

I remember I, I brought it up to my second wife that I was gonna do a 50 miler. She says, you get so depressed after you don't make an Ironman or this or that. You shouldn't do a 50 miler and then when I went bankrupt, she kinda left. So I was walking around downtown San Francisco and I couldn't even look, I had no confidence left. I could only look down at the ground. That's all I was doing. God, I remember how good I felt when I finished my first Iron Man. You know? I go, I need that feeling again. And then my buddy said that he tells me about this 50 miler. He goes, I know you've been talking about it. It's tomorrow, right?

That's like not much notice. But on top of it, have poison oak on my manly parts.

Paddy: What?

Bill Bradley: yeah, like, you know, from going the bathroom in the woods. And so I go, I got poison oak on my manly parts it's probably not a good idea,

Paddy: Bill, let me guess. You did it anyways.

Bill Bradley: well, okay, let me keep [00:01:00] going. So I'm going to bed thinking I'm not gonna do it.

I wake up at three in the morning like Tom Cruise in risky business. I say, sometimes you need to say what the bleep, and I went down there and I ran that 50 miles. Like my life depended on it. After I finished that thing, I was, I was walking in San Francisco. I'm staring people in the eyes. I'm no longer the failed video guy. Right now I'm an endurance athlete and so I'm, I got a new identity and I'm looking people in the eyes again.

My confidence was coming back.

Paddy: MUSIC

PADDYO VO:

One of the most important lessons of my life came during my brother Sean’s state track meet his senior year of high school. Sean was one of the better high jumpers in Illinois that year, but this story has nothing to do with him. Sorry Seany. Rather, while waiting for the high jump to start, my dad and I watched one of the relays. As teams of four guys [00:02:00] came peeling around the track, one of them flubbed the baton exchange and—poof!—just like that, their dreams of a medal vanished.

As they tried to recover the baton, the rest of the teams tore away from them. When their anchorman finally got the baton, he jogged his lap and, nearing the finish line, suddenly spiked the baton to the ground and walked off the track.

My dad watched that guy, turned to me, and practically snarled: “Don’t ever be like that.”

I think about that moment all the time. I’ve applied it to my race training, my backcountry adventuring, my career, my marriage, fatherhood…everything. My dad wasn’t saying don’t flub the baton, and he wasn’t saying don’t come in last. He was telling me that you always put forth the best effort you can muster, even when—especially when—failure is guaranteed. Because trying is what matters, and how you try at [00:03:00] one thing is how you try at everything.

And I am now convinced that no one on Earth is better at trying than Epic Bill Bradley, who may well be the greatest failure in the history of endurance sports.

Pause Pause

In the 80s and 90s, before Bill was Epic, he owned a chain of thriving video rental stores in and around Santa Rosa, California—you Gen Z folks out there might have to Google the term “video rental store.” At his peak, Bill was worth millions of dollars and seen as an innovator by his peers, which is probably why he was dismissive when a little company called Netflix appeared and proceeded to lay waste to the entire video rental industry.

In a whiplash-inducing turn of events, Bill lost everything—his riches, his business, his marriage, and his sense of purpose.

Bill had been a casual runner and competed in a [00:04:00] few marathons and Ironmans before the fall. With nothing but time on his hands, he threw himself into the most consuming thing he could think of: Ultramarathons. And, as is often the case with driven people, he found them almost addictive.

Since the collapse of his business in 2005, Bill has taken on some of the world’s most extreme endurance challenges. There’s the Arrowhead Ultra, a self supported winter race across Northern Minnesota where the temperatures routinely stay ten-to-twenty degrees below zero. There have been ascents on Denali and Aconcagua and attempts to swim the English Channel. There’s the Badwater 135, which begins below sea level, in 110-degree heat in Death Valley, and ends above eight thousand feet at the foot of Mount Whitney.

To be clear, Bill is accomplished. He holds the World Record for the most consecutive rim-to-rim runs in the Grand Canyon, and he’s the 24th person [00:05:00] to complete the 292-mile Double Badwater ultra. But in some ways it’s his failures that are even more impressive. He’s attempted Aconcagua three times without summiting. He was lost for nearly 12 hours on the failed English Channel swim. And then there’s that pesky Arrowhead—a race he’s attempted twelve times, without success.

As you’ll hear, Bill is almost more enamored with his failures than he is with his successes—actually, I hope you’ll hear that. It may be hard, because the guy simply won’t stop laughing when he tells his stories and he's one of the most perma-fired-up humans on the Earth. Epic Bill doesn’t just try hard in everything that he does; he’s managed to turn trying—and putting up with all the blood, sweat, and tears involved with that trying, into a way of life. If you can do that, it kinda makes everything else a lot simpler. And that [00:06:00] simplicity becomes a source of true joy.

MUSIC

first Things first, burnt toast. What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment outside

Bill Bradley: I was thinking about it and I said, that's gotta be when I was doing one of my first ultras up in Alaska. The Susitna 100 and I remember I was out there, I don't know what I was 50, 70 miles into this race, you know, and I lost my lube on the trail. I lost, I lost my lube and my crack, you know, I don't wanna be, screaming at me.

It was screaming at me. And I, I, and I was in tears almost. And I came in, I was starting to come into this little town and I saw a little house on the end of the town. It's like eight o'clock at night and I see like one light in there and I go, I gotta get lube, man.

I gotta get lube.

Paddy: God.

Bill Bradley: So I go up to [00:07:00] this little house, I knock on the door. This old lady comes to the door, I said, um, I am in a race called the Susitna and I need some lube.

Paddy: What did this little old lady say?

Bill Bradley: I don't know, they were in shock her, she got her husband out there. They were in shock. And then they came out and gave me some lube, it was some Vaseline or something. And I go, oh, oh, you're godsend. You know, you're like in so much pain,

Paddy: wow. Yeah. What's a little lube between friends and strangers?

Bill Bradley: on the door.

Paddy: My Lord,

Bill Bradley: selling anything.

Paddy: I am. So glad that this is where we're starting.

Bill Bradley: You started it?

Paddy: I'm so excited about where we're headed. Alright, let's get into it.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

bill, given your multiple attempts at the very, very cold Arrowhead Ultra [00:08:00] and the sweltering bad water, Ultra plus all of your other very cold and very hot runs, I wanna start things out a little fun digging into your expertise in the particular miseries of extreme heat and extreme cold.

So what's the worst part of slogging your keister around? Temps at and above 110 degrees?

Bill Bradley: I've tried the, the, uh, Badwater one 30, well, it's Badwater 1 46. 'cause you have to go to the top of Whitney, but it's unsupported and it's with a, you're carrying a 150 pound cart with you. You have a van around you, but ? Like, only if you're like gonna go out of the race, basically, it's there so you don't die.

'Cause I've done a quadruple Badwater, they're four times across 584 miles, but it was like one 10 for like three weeks. This time in the sun. It, it hit like 1 50, 1 60 like cooking temperature and you're out there with nothing. And I remember [00:09:00] like,

I'm out there, I'm so hot. And I got, so I got, like I said, a crew, they can't help you they can't give you water, they can't give you vi ice, but they can give you advice. And so I was telling my buddy, I think it was like one o'clock, it was just starting to get hot.

And I go, man, I'm dying. This is so fricking hot. I can't believe how hot it is. And he goes, bill, I got the perfect place for you to cool off. There's a, uh, like a little culvert or something. I don't know. And you'll be able to sit on the side of the road and you'll get your calves into the shade, and I go, you gotta be kidding me.

That's my cool off thing

Paddy: so then what's the worst part of trudging and temps dropping below minus 10. Then on the complete other end of the spectrum.

Bill Bradley: Yeah, so the coldest I've been is minus 50 out at Arrowhead

Paddy: Oh my God, that

Bill Bradley: I'm a California boy. I know you're from, Colorado. Woo woo. At least you get some We weather out

Paddy: Yeah.

Bill Bradley: I, I don't know if it's international falls weather, [00:10:00] but it's colder than here. yeah, When I went out to the first time, I was shocked when, you know, I'm going to the first checkpoint and I brought the best gloves I could buy in Santa Rosa, REI right.

And I'm going out there and it's minus 35 and my hands are frozen. I can't get anything outta my sled. They're just frozen. 'cause it was way colder than the gloves were rated, you know?

Paddy: Yeah. Yeah.

Bill Bradley: I remember I go into the first, the first checkpoints, it's like a, a, a, you know, a gas station, you know, with their food mart there and that, and you gotta pay too.

It's part of the, it's part of the thing. You get in there and you have to pay and you do everything. And, and I had to go right to the hotdog warmer to warm my hands up 'cause they were frozen, man. I'm like, they're like looking at me like, is he trying to steal a hot dog?

Paddy: so what? What makes a racer tougher then? Extreme cold or extreme heat.

Bill Bradley: Oh, I think they're both about the same man I made all the things in bad water when I had a [00:11:00] crew there, right? ' you're not gonna get to where you're in serious bad shape,

Paddy: But you don't have that in Arrowhead. You're by yourself.

Bill Bradley: I know, because you can go, especially I'm in the back of the pack, man. They try and hand me up broom times to sweep up after everybody go, no, I'm not, I'm trying to make it this year. Damnit. And so yeah, I'm in the back you get in trouble back there, you're in trouble. You, I went 12 hours one year and never saw a soul

Paddy: Jesus.

Bill Bradley: 12 hours.

remember this was my first Arrowhead and I came up to this v in the row, in the trail, right?

And I go, man. Is it right or is it left? There were a hundred racers in the, in the race, right. But I go, man, I must be able to see which way these people went.

So I, I got my headlamp, I'm looking straight down at the trail and I go, alright, it looks like they went left, right? And so I start going left just then you know, the safety guy on the snowmobile. He comes up just at that moment and he goes, bill, wrong way [00:12:00] and it's right.

And I'm going like, wow. Better lucky than good. Ha.

Paddy: That guy probably saved your life.

Bill Bradley: He could have, man, we got, we got that sled with our, sleeping bag and all that, man. But, you know, you don't wanna be out there too long. So yeah. And then he gets me going to the right one. And I remember when I showed up the first checkpoint at 30 mile 37, I, you know, everybody around me was all dropping out, right? And I'm like, I don't, you guys don't understand. I don't quit.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: You've often described yourself as, quote, just an ordinary guy. Yet you've done things that most people can't imagine. So if you're not an extreme person, who is, how do you view an extreme person?

Can you give us an example?

Bill Bradley: I think I'm extreme. I don't think I'm great at anything.

Paddy: But I mean, you've, you've described yourself as I'm an ordinary guy who does these non-ordinary

Bill Bradley: mile, my mile times and things like that in high school and how good I did in [00:13:00] sports, like I cut by from every team with a ball in ninth grade. Sounds like an ordinary guy to me.

I think you can train yourself to be great. I'm great at suffering. That's what I'm great at. I'm great at not quitting.

Paddy: Yeah. Yeah.

Bill Bradley: , I may get knocked out of a race, but I'm gonna keep coming back until I can do it.

Paddy: Well, there's a great line in the documentary where a reporter asks what it means to be an extreme athlete, and you give this great response. You say, well, first it means you have some serious issues. So I have to ask, bill, what are your serious issues?

Bill Bradley: I think I had a lot of issues, man. Just growing up, you know, I was afraid of everything, man. I literally was, as a kid, I was afraid of everything. And I think that's why I went so extreme this way because I'm, I was sick of being afraid of everything.

And so now, even if I'm afraid and I'm afraid of a lot of stuff, I do it anyway.

Paddy: [00:14:00] Huh.

Bill Bradley: I mean, I think the fear was the biggest thing why I started taking these events on, because I was sick of being afraid of everything. Just sick of it,

Paddy: So when you line up at the starting line and you look over at your fellow, racers, do you recognize that they too had like a yoke of fear on their shoulders throughout life? Or do you see something in them and you're like, ah, I see, yep, that's your issue. Oh, there's Greg over there and I know Greg has these issues and then Susie's over this way.

And I could definitely tell Susie has these issues. Do you recognize issues in other folks, uh, your other competitors?

Bill Bradley: I think sometimes I do. Well, you know, you know what they say though about people who run ultras. A lot of 'em are ex addicts, alcoholics, a lot of us. I mean, I, I quit drinking at 30 years. I'm only 30 right now in my head, but I quit drinking at 30

Paddy: Yeah.

Bill Bradley: and then when you don't drink, that was buffering from all my fears,

Paddy: Yeah. Yeah,

Bill Bradley: Then those [00:15:00] fears are right in your fricking face and you gotta deal with all 'em. 'cause you don't have that buffer anymore of, you know, just calming yourself down.

Paddy: So I think the obvious next question is then well you keep doing these races and these challenges? Does that mean that these races and these expeditions that you've set yourself on has not alleviated this big yoke of fear that has it changed?

Bill Bradley: I think I'm less afraid just from doing it. You know what I mean? You keep doing it and doing it like swimming in the English Channel. I had a deathly fear of jumping in in water, uh, cold water, dark water. I mean, I really learned to swim till I was 35 years old. but Fear of, of all that.

And I just, I, I go after anything I'm afraid of. Absolutely. And I take it on, you know?

Paddy: Fear is a thing. It's not like an on and off switch, right? It continues to be present in our lives. It shows up in different ways. Do you continue to do these races [00:16:00] and challenges because you continue to build the muscle of having no fear?

Bill Bradley: You're talking my language now. The muscle, that courage is a muscle man. It's a muscle. You gotta build that. And, and it goes away. Like, I hadn't been in the water in like eight years. I, after my fifth attempt at the English Channel, I was so burned out. I've been, I got, you know, I lost a boat, you know, I was out there for 12 hours in that cold water, got hit by a storm,

Paddy: Jesus

Bill Bradley: then your, your fears start to come back, you know, and so you gotta get, gotta stay after 'em just to keep 'em at bay.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: You have all of these really wonderful lines and, interesting quotes from the film. one of them is when you say, screw being the video man, now I'm an ultra runner. So let's fill in the gap here a little bit. 'cause that's kind of a gigantic leap to go from, business mogul to sufferer of extreme, ridiculous mileage.

So you went [00:17:00] from a $5 million video store empire to bankruptcy, very sadly, divorce, uh, uh, like in a short window. So when everything felt like it had. Let's say fallen apart. Why? And what did the world of endurance offer that other physical pursuits did not.

Bill Bradley: I ran on track in high school and junior high and I, I loved running, even in grammar school, I used to run to school, you know, not 'cause I had to or anything. I just liked it, you know, and so I, I always liked running. I started doing triathlons and marathons, uh, then I, you know, like Ironmans and, and, but I never did a 50 mile or anything.

I remember I, I brought it up to my second wife that I was gonna do a 50 miler. She says, you get so depressed after you don't make an Ironman or this or that. You shouldn't do a 50 miler and then when I went bankrupt, she kinda left. So I went bankrupt. I went back to work at the family's [00:18:00] business. I grew up as an electrician, but then when I, I, later I became a salesman. Because I'm kind of good at talking woo woo. But I was walking around downtown San Francisco and I couldn't even look, I had no confidence left. My identity was in that video business. I'd been in it for 20 years, I could only look down at the ground. That's all I was doing. Looking at my feet. God, I remember how good I felt when I finished my first Iron Man. You know? I go, I need that feeling again. I need something to snap me out of this, this no confidence funk. and then my buddy said that he tells me about this 50 miler. He goes, I know you've been talking about it. It's tomorrow, right?

That's like not much notice. But on top of it, have poison oak on my manly parts.

Paddy: What?

Bill Bradley: said, yeah, like, you know, from going the bathroom in the woods. And so I go, I got poison oak on my manly parts it's probably not a good idea,

Paddy: Bill, let me guess. You did it anyways.

Bill Bradley: well, okay, let me keep going. So I'm going to [00:19:00] bed thinking I'm not gonna do it.

I wake up at three in the morning like Tom Cruise in risky business. I say, sometimes you need to say what the bleep, because I was so desperate. I set my alarm for five and I went down there and I ran that 50 miles. Like my life depended on it. Literally like my life depended. I remember when I finished, somebody goes, Hey Bradley, what's all that red stuff coming down your inner thighs?

Paddy: Oh my God.

Bill Bradley: It was my poison oak going down my legs.

Paddy: Oh, Jesus, bill.

Bill Bradley: Yeah. And, but next week after I finished that thing, I was, I was walking in San Francisco. I'm staring people in the eyes. I'm no longer the failed video guy. Right now I'm an endurance athlete and so I'm, I got a new identity and I'm looking people in the eyes again.

My confidence was coming back.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: You've lived as, let's call it a have and as a have not. Right. You were sitting flush with millions of dollars in the bank, you know, pretty dang extreme [00:20:00] wealth. Were you any happier than, did it make life easier than today?

Bill Bradley: Uh, it made it easier to go to all these events. People go, well, how do you afford to go to all these events? I wasn't spending any money on anything else. I would just live, you know, basic life. I don't have an urge to do any vacations that aren't involved either in training or doing an event that is boring.

When I see that picture of the guys sitting in that hammock and then they click their dr their beers together, I'm like, now what brother? Now what? How boring is that?

Paddy: Well, okay, so let's, go back in time a little bit. You know, the bankruptcy. Was pretty public. the film makes it seem like it was really devastating and the, public nature of it seems to be like extra excruciating.

So I have to believe the crossing the finish line, even showing up to the starting line of these races in front of folks is a way to cure that feeling incrementally, even if it's just [00:21:00] morsels at a time. am I right? Is that part of the motivation

Bill Bradley: I, I think I had to get my, I just want to get my comforts up so I didn't care what other people think, you know what I mean? I had to get my confidence up to where I don't care because 99% of the people they can't relate to what you're doing and they're gonna, uh, you know, do the criticism, you know, and tell you why you can't do stuff.

'cause they, they were, they feel, a lot of people feel it reflects on them, you know, that they're not doing anything with their life.

I wanted to stand taller and be able to look myself. Look in the mirror. And look in the eye and to myself and feel proud of who I am.

Paddy: so it was less about the external, more about the internal,

Bill Bradley: I know, but hopefully the external would pick up too.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: What's very clear in the film is that you seem to me to be a very devoted family man. With that in mind, how do you sit with that tension between loving your family, not wanting to scare them, but also very realistically [00:22:00] needing these challenges in your life?

Bill Bradley: My sisters, everybody, they think I'm crazy going out to International Falls where it's so cold, right. Minus 35. and I'm out there and I couldn't find that 73 mile checkpoint, right? I got up there,, the cafe's closed.

I'm beating on the window going, Hey, hey, hey. And, and then I, I had gone to a survival school, up in Alaska. And the only thing I remember about it was, get in your sleeping bag while you still can, because you get, when you stop, you get so cold, you start shaking like crazy.

Then you can't open the zipper to your sleeping bag or to your sled. As soon as I thought of that, I quit banging on this window. I ran down, I got, pulled my sleeping bag outta my sled, got into it. I was hyperventilating, man. I'm like, I was like in a panic, you know what I mean? I finally fell asleep. And then about three hours later I hear my, a buddy of mine he says, Hey, bill, is that you sleeping on that ice covered parking lot? I go, [00:23:00] yeah, and they were like, Hey, your sister called and they said, don't let Bill go past this checkpoint because I scared the crap out.

'em, they had to be lost on the course for those hours, you know, lost and, and you know,

Paddy: you're very realistically, risking life and limb so how do you stay committed as a family man and also say, I love you. I know I don't want to scare you, but I'm gonna do this race. what do

Bill Bradley: think I said it just like you said it. You know what I said? Because I'm pretty bad about, I'm really driven. Right. I'm like, well, you guys don't, I won't tell you when I do it next time, so don't follow me, and then you won't have to worry.

Paddy: Do you still do that? Has that worked out for you?

Bill Bradley: I think they're used to that. I somehow keep living.

Paddy: Okay.

Bill Bradley: They go, he is like a bad penny. He just keeps coming back.

Paddy: Do you think it's, it's less about you having to sit with tension and more about them having to accept the fact that you're gonna just continue to do these [00:24:00] things?

Bill Bradley: think that's what they have to do. I can't compromise my life. This is my calling. I'm trying to inspire like millions of people and stuff to go after their dreams and their goals and don't let anything stop 'em. And if I can go after these things with everything, I got these extreme endurance and they sure could go after whatever their goal or dream is and don't let a little thing stop you.

You know?

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

PADDY VO:

More from Epic Bill Bradley after the break.

MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL

Paddy: When most folks hear about people like you who are devoted to these objectively brutal challenges, the response is first to ask why, and then to ask how. So let's turn the soil over on that, because the way I see it, you seem to have some superpowers around stubbornness, suffering, pain, and failure.

Let's start with stubbornness. A lot of your public comments make it sound like relentlessness is almost your entire playbook. How much of your talent or gift can be [00:25:00] reduced to simple stubbornness?

Bill Bradley: If you wanna call relentlessness stubbornness, that's what it is. 'cause I won't quit, man. I'm just not gonna quit. I'm gonna keep coming back. You know, no matter how bad I get tortured, no matter how bad the frostbite is falling in a crevasse like 25 feet down on, on Denali Nightmares, I have nightmares all the

Paddy: Yes. Like these are nightmarish things that, that you are describing. How do you temper that then with something that is like, pretty admirable to be like, man, this guy out on the trail will just push through anything to just keep going and to keep going and how do you temper that though in your personal life? Like, does stubbornness at all play a role in, interpersonal relationships?

Your, your life off trail? Did it play a role in the bankruptcy, in your marriages?

Bill Bradley: It did. I think it did play a role in the bankruptcy, because Netflix came out and I'm like, we never quit Netflix. I'm like the guy talking at our big national [00:26:00] video convention rallying the troops. Netflix is not gonna take us out. We always survive. We're gonna, we will all figure it out. We're this, because I'm still expanding.

I have three brand new stores open, and then I'm like the first guy to go bankrupt. You know what I mean? It's like, I never have a plan B. Once I go for things, I'm going

Paddy: with something like that, right, like where it's like, oh, it's a superpower over here and, uh, over here it's, really actually like detrimental to my wellbeing. how do you push and pull that? How do you make sure it's only the good stubborn and not the bad?

I mean, do you, do you know, is,

Bill Bradley: I have a life co, I have a life coach makes, I, I quiz her every once in a while and make sure I'm not crazy. Ha,

Paddy: So is that what you have to do? Do you have to fact check your thoughts and motivations?

Bill Bradley: I kind of do, man. You know, because there's pretty much nothing I will do because, because of fear. I just will do it. You know, like I think I go to people who I think will tell me yes, that's why I do it. But I said, I said, I had this [00:27:00] mentor, they're my mentors to people who say Yes, bill. Yes. Ha. I go, I do it, I do it.

Paddy: So that's, that's the measuring stick for like, whether it's good stubbornness or bad

Bill Bradley: yeah,

Paddy: I just gotta ask everybody until one person says yes.

Bill Bradley: Yeah. Somebody who's crazier than me.

Paddy: Jesus

Bill Bradley: That crazy guy. Yeah. He said yes.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: Your motto is Show up and suffer. as a mantra, is that too reductive though, to really encapsulate how you do what you do? What is it about suffering that you find so beneficial?

Bill Bradley: I think it's a muscle, like get out there and suffer and it's so much of, it's mental, but it's, you're building that muscle up, you know, just against those fears. I honestly, man, I was so afraid of everything that I, you know, that's why I started drinking and everything.

It was the first time I felt like at 18 years old that I felt like I had courage is because I had liquid courage. Right. You know? and then when I stopped drinking, I was all that fear came back and I go, okay, I'm gonna face these [00:28:00] fears. you know, and I was never gonna use another, Anything to buffer the fear.

Right. I was gonna face the fears. and that's what I did. And I think by facing those fears, you keep building up your courage and pretty soon you have a big life.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

I'd been doing Ironmans and marathons, and, and it was a big deal when I finished those. But the level of suffering in those, even though it was bad, you had aid stations every mile on the run. You know what I mean?

So you were never like in danger of anything, you know what I mean? You're always safe, even if you were suffering. I had read the book into thin air, right, like a long time ago when it first came out and I said, I'm gonna climb Mount Everest someday I don't know what it is. It makes me take on this stuff. That would scare, it does scare me. And, and it, it makes me want to take it all on. I, but I think I realize that most things that people think are really, really, really dangerous, aren't as dangerous as what is in their mind.

Paddy: Does the mantra only [00:29:00] apply to slogging along on a trail, or do you find it, it is also true and is beneficial in your personal life?

Bill Bradley: It's definitely beneficial in my personal life too. So I, I, when I did my first bad water race, I really didn't know about like hyponutremia and all this stuff. And so I'm just like, it got really hot and I'm just chugging this water. I ended up getting hyponutremia so bad that my, quads were ca or cramping so bad.

It felt like somebody was putting a butcher knife in me, and so when I made it to the top or to the, to the portal on Whitney, the finish of that first Badwater race. Literally that felt like I had a win. Like not just a 50 mile win. This now is one of the toughest races in the world.

Win. So what does that do for my personal life that gives me more confidence in my personal life, even though the business thing really put a dent in me, like something like you wouldn't believe. So that the business end's been slowly coming back. But you know, I can, get up and talk in front of [00:30:00] 1500 people now. Things I could never have done before. All this

I was doing a lot better in sales after I started doing these things.

I was kind of interesting for people to talk to.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: another thing that shows up a lot in your story is pain, and not as something to avoid, but something to lean into. What do you think pain has taught you about yourself? That comfort never could.

Bill Bradley: Oh, I don't think you learn anything from comfort. I just think that's just, bad news, man. You know, it's just, it's, it's, it's a reward is what you gotta use comfort as

Paddy: you know, one of the things you talk a a lot about in the film, and we've talked about it in this conversation, is about fear. Your own fears about heights, cold loneliness, heat, even death. And you talk about deliberately chasing down those fears, facing these fears. There's a lot of pain in facing fear, even if you overcome these things.

So what happens to fear once you've faced it enough times?

Bill Bradley: [00:31:00] you get numb to it, man. Whatever you wanna call it. It's just not as big a deal. It gets a little less all the time. You know, even when, like, I hadn't jumped in the water in a long, in eight years in the Bay, and I jumped back in first day, Ooh, ooh, man, I'm really tight. I'm really tight. You know, maybe it took a month till I started relaxing again.

but the other one, it took him years, you know, till I relaxed in the bay , and so it comes back quicker, but it's, you, you numb yourself to it. I think Alex Honnold talked about it in free solo where he keeps climbing. It just doesn't feel as dangerous to you when you keep doing things over and over again.

And if you haven't died, it is not as dangerous to you anymore. In your mind. It doesn't trigger that fight or flight thing, you know, it just doesn't trigger triggered anymore.

Paddy: you think after all your years of doing this, you're not a fearful person?

Bill Bradley: No, I, I was just telling Jesse, my life coach, I said, you know what, I haven't gone to Arrowhead in the last two years. Right. You know, and there's something about when you go into the dark up there by yourself and it's minus [00:32:00] 35 degrees and if you screw up, you know you're gonna get yourself in big trouble.

I go, I told her, I said, man, I'm worried I'm getting weak 'cause I haven't been out to Arrowhead in two years. I'm worried, I'm getting mentally weak. You know, I think you do have to keep working that muscle, just like it was a muscle in your arms, you know? You know, same thing. You gotta keep working it. you know, Like if you haven't done it for years, if you haven't done like squats or anything, your muscles and your knees and all that stuff, you know, your, I guess your tendons down there, they all atrophy.

Just like somebody who's had a cast on their arm. And then you take the cast off and you see all the muscle went away just in that short period of time.

Paddy: yeah. Oh yeah.

Bill Bradley: That really was a good analogy for me. I

Paddy: Nice work.

Bill Bradley: words at

Paddy: Nice work, bill.

Bill Bradley: to there analogy, baby woo woo. Not bad for blue collar baby.

Woo woo.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: The things you choose to do outside are not your average weekend warrior things. [00:33:00] The amount and frequency of them make you an outlier, even in a room full of, full on outdoorsy hardos. But trying and quote unquote, failing and trying again is incredibly relatable and arguably it's the most relatable thing about you.

Like you have failed publicly many times, right? in not crossing the finish line or making the summit, uh, you know, things like Denali, Arrowhead, the English Channel, et cetera, et cetera, right? But you keep coming back for these things. So how did you learn to see failure? As part of the process.

Bill Bradley: I think it comes back to ninth grade when I was playing the ball sports, I had played, basketball since I was like fifth grade then you come to ninth grade. Now it's like there's only one team as a freshman, you know, the JV or, or I was a freshman team and I, I didn't, I was a late mature, so I was like five feet, two inches and I wasn't that [00:34:00] good at basketball,

Paddy: Spud Web, you were not,

Bill Bradley: No, no. Nobody accused me of being Spud Webb and winning the dunk contest. I literally, you know, I went out for the team and they put the list up in the locker room of the people who had made the team, you know, and I got cut, and I went, I came after school and I challenged the guy 'cause you could challenge.

And the guy creamed me. I didn't go down easy.

Paddy: So you're 14 years old and you challenged the guy who made the final spot to see if you could bump him off the roster, and you got creamed by this guy.

Bill Bradley: The better man wins. And I was not the better man.

Paddy: So, you've been trying and quote unquote failing for essentially the majority of your life. Is it right.

Bill Bradley: I think so. I think I had a little run in the video business where I did pretty well.

Paddy: for sure. But to you, is failure beneficial? Is it just part of the thing that you do?

Bill Bradley: I think it tells me that it's a worthy [00:35:00] challenge. I remember I did that Ultraman and those are like, that's like two and a half Ironmans around the big island, you know? And those were some of the best athletes I'd ever been. There was like an Olympian in there. Everybody was great. And I made it the first year, right?

I made it. It was a huge deal. And then I go, well, I'm like one of the gang, now I'm gonna go back and do a second year. Right. And I do the second year, and and I made it again and it's still really, really hard, but I'm like, well, that was boring. I already knew I could make it. And I made it again, it was boring.

I need another challenge.

Paddy: So the success of finishing a thing like crossing the finish line, that's not even that fun for you.

Bill Bradley: No, it's like next. It's instantly next. What's the next challenge? What's the next big challenge I can go after that's gonna scare the crap outta me and make it really hard for me to finish? I remember I was sitting in that sleeping bag at Arrowhead, like hyperventilating thinking like, wow, this race is worthy, man.

Paddy: Well, so how do you know when to pull the plug? Or will you never ever pull the plug on [00:36:00] one of these things? Will you never

Bill Bradley: pulled the plug. I took eight year. I was so burned out on swimming. I took eight years off and then I just went back and swam all the way through the winter and didn't make the qualifying again. I don't even know the answer because I swam all the way through the winter.

I was burned out on swimming again, you know? And so now I'm running and I'm gonna, I just made up my mind the other day. I'm going back to Arrowhead for my 13th attempt. 'cause we never quit. Woo woo.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: You have your inspiration wall, which features prominently in the film and it features prominently in your life. It's behind you right now.

Bill Bradley: And can I show, I get a little span of

Paddy: Oh, sure.

Bill Bradley: the way down.

Paddy: I love

Bill Bradley: I had to buy a rolling chair so that I could roll up and down and look at the parts that were motivating me at the time,

Paddy: So, you know, you say that if it's on the wall, you believe it. Does that ever fail you? Do you ever feel like you're lying to [00:37:00] yourself or the wall is bullshit?

Bill Bradley: No,

Paddy: How?

Bill Bradley: I don't know. I'm probably delusional, but I think if I have enough training and good coaching or whatever, if I need coaching that I can do anything. And then I always study these people who do this stuff like that quarterback for, Indiana.

Paddy: Fernando,

Bill Bradley: Fernando. Yeah. So how I've watched every clip on that. I've watched that coach talk about, you know,

Paddy: Cig is insane, he's great.

Bill Bradley: In there. I love both of those guys. I love 'em, but I watch it over and over again. 'cause I'm brainwashing myself.

If Fernando could do it, I could do it at Arrowhead.

Paddy: Fernando's also like 22 years old and just won the Heisman Trophy. You are in your sixties. You're

Bill Bradley: No, I'm not. It's just on my wall. I'm 30 man

Paddy: uh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Bill Bradley: 30. I brainwashed myself that I'm 30.

Paddy: have brainwashed yourself that you're 30 certain birth certificates might suggest that you're [00:38:00] in your sixties,

You're still planning firsts. You're still planning records, and also eighth, 10th, 13th attempts. These races and expeditions don't get any easier with time. And as we all go forward in life, we have to make adjustments right to what we do and how we do them.

given your. Age on your birth certificate, not in your head. how do you think you're gonna adapt your approach to life to these challenges going forward? Does it still have to be Denali and Arrowhead and Unc gwa?

Bill Bradley: Everest. Don't forget

Paddy: and Everest? Of course. How can I forget? Can you, dial it back at all on these goals?

Is that acceptable or are you going to do these things until you burst into dust?

Bill Bradley: If they let me in, I'm gonna keep going after 'em, man. And like I said, I think a lot of this aging is that you don't use it anymore. I'm really 100% convinced by that man,

Paddy: Yeah. Motion is the lotion.

Bill Bradley: Fuck Yeah. That keeping your mind young. Yeah. I didn't mean to cuss,

Paddy: Oh, that's [00:39:00] Cuss. Cuss ahead.

Bill Bradley: Yeah. Fuck. Yeah.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: Do you think that you can feel worth fulfillment in your life? Self-love without these endurance challenges?

Bill Bradley: No, I think I could be bored, though. Very easy.

Paddy: Well,

Bill Bradley: not doing this stuff. It drives me crazy.

Paddy: So what about this bill? From all these things that you've done, all these things that you've learned out there, for someone who can't devote their life to these pursuits, what are the takeaways for them? Can the lessons from your experiences scale down to be relevant to like the average schmo who is considering, I don't know, running around the block, running a marathon, just trying to cure couch potato itis?

what's the lesson for them?

Bill Bradley: If you want to have a big life, you better put some good goals out there, right? You better challenge yourself. Get outta that damn comfort zone. All that leads to is depression. whenever I've sat in the comfort zone, you [00:40:00] sit in there for a while, you get bored right away.

I get bored within a weeks, and then next thing I know I'm depressed. And then that's when, you know, like you're gonna numb yourself with drinking or drugs or something else. It's better to train and, and, and put a worthy goal out there and go after that. So you have a purpose in your life. I like to ask people like, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail?

Paddy: Hmm.

Bill Bradley: And that's what you do.

Paddy: Even when in fact, failure is quite realistic. Like that's not enough to deter you though.

Bill Bradley: No, because it just makes you tougher and then you figure something out by it and you keep going. Guys who are like either worth a lot of money, you know, billionaires and things like that, or people who've been really great in sports, they've all had tons of failures, man, you know, they've all had 'em. You know, you gotta rise up from the ashes man and keep fighting.

That's, that's what makes a champion.

You gotta like, start really small, write out those fears and whatever your smallest one is, start with that man. [00:41:00] Just con, get some momentum going and a little confidence.

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

Paddy: It is now time for the final ramble. One piece of gear you cannot live without.

Bill Bradley: Since I'm the guy who's had frostbite so bad, I had to go to three doctors till one finally told me I would keep it. The bottom line is really good gloves. Ha ha ha.

Paddy: Copy that.

Bill Bradley: In case I wanna hitchhike, I don't want people going, what is that guy doing out there?

It looks like he's doing the samba.

Paddy: Best outdoor snack.

Bill Bradley: I was thinking about this, the peanuts, um, what is that called? Where you got the peanuts and the M and MSM mixed together?

Paddy: Oh, gorp.

Bill Bradley: gorp? Yeah, I like that. 'cause that doesn't freeze it doesn't upset my stomach. I can snack on that for hours, man. You know.

Paddy: The classic, the OG gorp. Gotta love it.

What is your hottest outdoor hot take?

Bill Bradley: What did I used to say? I used to said, uh, they would tell me why I [00:42:00] couldn't do it. I said, well, I'm crazy, so that's why I'm doing it because then what answer could somebody give you? Right. You know what I mean? Because they would always debate me. I'd say, what makes you think you could go out there and do this?

I go, I don't know. I just, I, I, I guess I'm crazy.

Paddy: So is is your hot take bill then? A little bit of crazy. Goes a long way. Get a little bit of crazy in your life.

Bill Bradley: your cri critics up. They go, yeah, I agree. You're crazy. Okay. That's a good reason I got out all my debates by saying that.

Paddy: Well, maybe you're hot as the outdoor hot tech should be. don't be afraid to ask your neighbor for a little bit of lube.

Bill Bradley: Yeah.

Paddy: That seems a little crazy to me, I don't know how, but I hope, to God that this episode finds it to that little old lady.

Bill Bradley: And her husband, they're like, there's somebody at the door wants lube,

Paddy: MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

PADDYO [00:43:00] VO:

Epic Bill Badley is...unlike any human I have ever had the pleasure to chat with. You should absolutley watch the new documentary about him, the one we mentioned several times in this conversation. It's called, of course, Epic Bill and it is streaming on Apple TV  and Amazon Prime. You can follow Bill's epic adventures on Youtube at Bill Bradley Epic or on Instagram at Epic Bill Bradley.

Also, don't forget you can watch video epsiodes of the podcast at Outside Podcast 1 on YouTube. It's like radio but for your eyes.

And, remember that we want to hear from you. Sooo, email your pod reactions, guest nominations, whether or not you'd ask a stanger for lube, and whatever else you want to tell and/or ask us to Outside Podcast At Outside Inc Dot Com.

The Outside Podcast is hosted and produced by me, Paddy O'Connell. But you can [00:44:00] call me PaddyO. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard, Micah "I always loan lube to my friends, stop being such a prude" Abrams. Music and Sound Design by Robbie Carver. Booking and research by Jeanette Courts, with additional production support by Maren Larsen.

The Outside Podcast is made possible by our Outside Plus members. Learn about all the extra rad benefits and become a member yourself at Outside Online Dot Com Slash Pod Plus.