What Rock Climbing Teaches Us About Balance in Real Life, with Kai Lightner

Paddy: [00:00:00] to me, you know, you come off as a very confident person. You're also a very affable person, you know, and obviously belief in yourself, even belief that you can do things that are seemingly impossible is the rocket fuel that an athlete from good to great. Even mythical confidence. Even overconfidence is easily understandable at the crag or climbing wall.

But how do you temper that away from climbing? I guess my point is like, I feel like it could be very easy to like slide into becoming kind of like a self licking lollipop here and you seem like you don't, and so I wanna know how you do that.

Kai: So you're basically asking me why I'm not an asshole.

Paddy: I mean, I don't believe I'm asking that, but Yeah.

Kai: I think that it is more so just about where you channel your energy, because while I think there's nothing wrong with pursuing excellence,

that's not mutually exclusive from having solid relationships with people around you, because we can joke and have fun, but then when it's time for me to commit to something, then [00:01:00] I'm focused on myself. And in that moment it's almost like creating a divide between, you know, the field of play versus what happens after in your personal life.

Paddy: MUSIC

PADDYO VO:

I have a complicated relationship with balance. As a larger-than-your-average-bear type of human, I joke that the only places I feel balletic are on skis, in the water, or on a wedding dance floor. Oh yes, the big man has moves.

Of course, I’ve been bucked off my mogul line plenty of times and pulled the odd hammy while executing an otherwise perfect kick-split to “I feel Good.” But it’s a lot easier to recover physical balance than emotional balance, and I’ve had my share of those experiences, too—losses of confidence or joy or faith that left me reeling. Coming back from that requires the help of family, friends, and therapists, but not at the expense of my time outdoors. Sometimes, it’s the physical [00:02:00] mirror of an emotional challenge— the long slog up a hill, the technically difficult descent, the failure at one or the other or both, and the stubborn, cathartic repetition until you get it right—that’s the thing that finally gets my head, heart, and feet in tune.

Like just about everything else that he does, climber Kai Lightner executes this kind of balancing act at a near superhuman level.

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If you know anything about climbing, you know Kai Lightner has a PhD in balance. He’s climbed since he was 6 years old, won 10 youth national championship titles, and is a five-time youth world championship medalist. While he was at it, Kai was named valedictorian of his high school, studied business management in college, and started a nonprofit called Climbing For Change that provides opportunities for people of color to get into the sport.

Like many before him, Kai [00:03:00] has evolved from an indoor climbing phenom to an outdoor climbing force. He completed his first first ascent in 2023—a 5.13c that was, at the time, the hardest route in all of Jamaica. For you non-climbers, routes graded between 5.13 and 5.15 are as difficult as climbing gets, and for the last few years Kai has lived in that difficulty. He’s ticked off bonkers climbs all over the world, none more impressive than a 5.15a in Hurricane, Utah known as “Death of Villains,” which is best described as a route along the roof of a cave.

All that superstar stuff has come with its own challenges to his emotional balance. Eating disorders are not uncommon in competitive climbing, and Kai has been very public about his own. As a youth phenom, he had to deal with adult-sized stress and pressure long before he had the tools to do so. But [00:04:00] if climbing has tested him in ways both physical and emotional, it’s also provided him the way through those tests. For Kai, the stubborn, cathartic repetition of learning a new route’s moves, forcing himself through the physical demands and embracing the fear and doubt—when it all comes together, the kind of balance he achieves can carry him through whatever life throws at him. And he looks like a damned upside down gazelle while he does it.

MUSIC

First things first, burnt toast. What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment outside?

Kai: Last year I got the pleasure of watching a Delaney Miller send Fat Camp, which is a 14 D And the day before she sent it, she fell like a move from the chains and she ended up coming down and she was like, gonna leave the crag and maybe come back for later try.

And watching her climbing on it inspired me to try it. And when I got up to try the route around the fourth or fifth draw, I just broke [00:05:00] off the big jug off the climb. And

Paddy: like a flake of rock came off of the rock

Kai: yeah, ironically. With the route being named Fat Camp, I just broke the jug off the route and,

Paddy: my God,

dude.

Kai: and once I broke it off, everyone at the crag was like silent. And I just looked around. I was like, no one tell Delaney, no one

Paddy: Yeah, totally. Yeah. cause she was probably what like practicing moves off of that feature

Kai: yes, about say she had dialed this route in. She had projected it for four years. And so she was like primed to send on any go and here I go, just coming up after her and just broke the hold off the wall.

Paddy: What happened when she showed up the next day and was like,

where did anyone see where that giant hold went?

Kai: Well, luckily there are plenty of people with surgical precision when it comes to fixing routes. And basically put the hold back onto the wall. Uh, and

Paddy: reattached rock to the rock.

Kai: yeah, it's a very meticulous process

Paddy: had no, idea that that's a thing. Am I an idiot? Did I not know you could attach rock to rock?

Kai: Yeah. I think it is something that, I [00:06:00] don't know, maybe this is a secret,

Paddy: What do you like climbers walk around with like Quick-crete are we blowing somebody's cover here? are we not supposed to tell people this?

Kai: Oh my gosh. It's just like a behind the scenes thing that a lot of route, route developers know about, they'll just fix it with like materials like Zika or like really a high end glue basically. That's like once it dries it's basically just as strong as rock

Paddy: this is blowing my mind right now. I think it's pretty cool that your last humbling experience was that you found out that you were just like strong enough to break rock. So that's pretty cool.

Kai: uh, say or, or if I'm just, uh, too fat to climb on fat camp.

Paddy: I don't think that's the case. Oh God, you're so impressively strong. Alright, let's get into it.

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Kai, I thought it would be fun to start with a little playful ribbing. You and I have climbed together, which is to say that you used only your feet for something that I needed all of my [00:07:00] limbs and my therapist to climb. I kind of hate climbing maybe. Basically, the thing is I find it like physically impossible and emotionally terrifying, and I feel like I'm always waiting for the fun to show up, and the fun never shows up. There's a lot of relief at the top, but I never have that like yippee factor. So what am I missing with climbing

Kai: Well, I feel like climbing is so much of technique and body movement that a lot of times, if you're that uncomfortable on a rock like granted, like. Fear of heights is very normal, but, if you're that uncomfortable on the rock, it's either that you maybe be trying something that's a bit too hard or you're not doing it in the correct way in terms of like, you know, keeping yourself close to the wall and being efficient

, i didn't do a really good job when I was bringing you out and bringing you on

Paddy: I,

Kai: are easy enough. I should have put you on something much easier. My

Paddy: like this is a nice way of you saying like, listen, I should have put you on something, maybe more in your wheelhouse. Also, you have terrible technique,

Kai: [00:08:00] Well, no,

Paddy: Which is totally true.

Kai: it is more so like, I mean, you can't know what's not been taught to you. I mean, that was your first time. So it's, it's my job as your instructor to teach you that stuff.

Paddy: I mean, I've been climbing before, like in my twenties when I moved to Colorado, and

I.

was like, I wanna be all of the outdoor mountain guy things, you know, I'm gonna do the biking, the skiing, the uh, rafting, the climbing. And when I tried climbing, I was like, I was just like ripping my belayer off the ground, you know?

And meeting them like halfway in the,

in the air, it was like, Hey, you're not supposed to be here, man. You're supposed to be on the ground. so it had been many years since I tried. Uh, and then you were nice enough to pet my head and give me compliments while I was trying to get my large rotund back porch up a 80 foot wall.

Kai: You did great though, especially on our last climb. No, like you actually did good. Like you were like really trying hard and pushing through, like it was really awesome to watch.

Paddy: Well, let's talk, not so much about my very crappy climbing, but you're very good climbing. Like, [00:09:00] do you find climbing as fun as say something like skiing or mountain biking or trail running? Do you find it to have the same yippee factor and I'm just like missing out on it?

Kai: Well, well, yes. I think I've been doing,

I've been doing it since I was six years old, and so, you know, like it's some, it's like climbing to me. It's like walking or like breathing. It's just something that I do is I feel like an extension of myself. And so like, climbing just feels fun and easy, is best when you feel weightless.

I don't really feel that in a lot of other activities like trail running. I don't really like to run at all. and so my joke was always, if you see me running, you probably should also be running 'cause there's definitely something chasing me. I tried skiing once, but I, I think I had a similar experience to you where I wasn't put on the bunny slopes.

They like just put me on what they thought was easy and I got scared and I didn't know how to stop. And it was just a lot going on

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Paddy: One of the things that's really fun about watching you climb is just [00:10:00] how balletic your movement is. Like you are quite smooth, you're like butter wrapped in silk, smooth on the wall. It's very fun to watch and I think part of that is. Because you have a plus seven APE index, meaning your wingspan is seven inches longer than your height. Now I feel as a non climber, I believe I know why that's great for climbing, but what else is that great for? Like how many grocery bags can you carry at once? How many people can you hug at the same time?

Kai: Quite, quite a few I'd say. I mean, I, I, I can't remember the last time that I had a extensive grocery run where I couldn't do it all in one, one take.

Paddy: crushing the world record

of grocery bags. What else is it good for?

Kai: well, I've never really had to use a step stool for anything. When I'm in the car and like something falls in between the seats or like falls behind me, like I can just reach it.

Paddy: cleaning

ceiling no problem.

Kai: Exactly like I, it is great.

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what ties me into climbing is definitely the movement like how engaging it is on so many levels. Like your, your problem solving on the wall, your physically engaged, a lot of times the difference between doing a movement, especially as it gets closer to your limit, are slight adjustments to your hips or your hands or, you know, just the little things where like the details matter and it forces you to be so in tuned with where everything on your body is at once that it just feels very.

connective and satisfying.

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Paddy: Let's jump back in time to your childhood. Folks who know you and your career have heard the story about when you were six and you climbed a 50 foot flagpole on the Fayetteville State University campus where your mother is a professor. A passerby gave your mom the address of a local climbing gym. Blama. Four years later, you win your first youth sport climbing national championship. Can you bring us back to the flagpole climb?

Kai: What I do remember from that was not necessarily like getting up there, I just remember looking down and seeing like the [00:12:00] reactions of people. 'cause, ' people were kind of panicked and it like, kind of made me panic 'cause I was like, why is everybody else so panicked?

when I like slid down and the lady was like, Hey, we should probably get him into rock climbing or something that's a bit more safe 'cause this is not safe at all. And also like against, uh, university policy. So they. Yeah, so, and so I, I don't remember so much the actual flagpole itself, but I do remember my first time in the climbing gym because, what really actually probably got my foot into the door of the sport was the fact that they put me on a climb that I couldn't do because the move was really big. the guy who had me on all the walls, put me on all the angles in the gym just to see how I would do, and I made my way up most of them.

And so he finally put me on a wall that had a overhang on it, and one of the moves was really big and I couldn't reach it. Instead of just falling, I just. Sat there for probably about 10 minutes and like, see if I could figure it [00:13:00] out, and I couldn't. And then I started crying and my mom thought it was because I was upset, but I was just really frustrated.

I couldn't do it. they were like, you can come down if you'd like. And I was just like, no, I, I can't come down. And so I do the move. And then I ended up trying to do the move and ended up falling, ended up crying some more. And then I convinced my mom to drive 45 minutes every day for the rest of the week until I could do that climb.

then once I could do that climb, then I moved on to the next climb. And I think at that point, the, the guy at the front desk who also taught the youth team was like, okay, well, we definitely have to work on the crying, but he's stubborn and that's a,

and the, and the stubbornness is a good quality for competition climbing.

And that's kind of how I found my way onto the youth team.

Paddy: So where does that competitive nature come from?

Kai: I don't know.

Paddy: Like, does your mom have that?

Kai: Well, yeah, my mother was a competitive gymnast and she also did swimming and debate team, and but I think it's one of those things where even if you come from a competitive background in terms of like your parents and stuff it doesn't automatically make you competitive.

You have to analyze the kid. I think for me, it's always kind of [00:14:00] just been in me like I've always been. A perfectionist in terms of what I expect from myself. one of my earliest memories of being upset was being in third grade, and I used to get a hundreds on all of my spelling tests, and then I got a 85 because I mixed up the order of they're, their and there, and I had an absolute meltdown like inconsolable because I was like, I can't believe I made such a mistake.

And I called my mom to come to the school and like I, I like studied the order of the words until I've never made that mistake again. And I've just kind of always been like that. And so it's never about being competitive against other people. I just expect the best out of myself,

Paddy: Are you still that fiery just wanting to get a hundred percent out of yourself at all times? Like If you get an 85 on pumping gas or an 85 on, emails or, when you're training or something like that.

Is it a hundred percent all the time or else it's failure?

Kai: Well, I'm an adult now, so I have a better understanding of the fact that, you [00:15:00] know,

Paddy: Oh, you become, uh, emotionally mature. Good for you.

Kai: yeah. So I have a better understanding of the fact that, you know, perfection, while it's, worthy goal is something that is impossible to achieve, but being as close to the best version of yourself is always the goal. So I think that part of it is never really left me. I always expect the best out of anything that I'm a part of or can produce.

whether it's my nonprofit, whether it's my climbing, Anything really. I'm like, if I wanna be a part of it, I expect the best for myself. And, you know, I, I feel bad for those who are also a part of that process too, because, I obviously, it's like not a mean thing, but I, I have been with people where we've had to redo things multiple times until it's, it satisfies me

Paddy: Climbing or away from climbing.

Kai: everything, to be honest. Yeah. It will quickly turn from, oh, this is fun. to, okay. But it is not quite right

Paddy: So

Kai: have to fix it.

Paddy: so how then do you temper between being [00:16:00] like. Overly stubborn and bullheaded and being so focused on achievement and climbing that you get to the goal,

Kai: it's definitely been something that I've had to find balance for too, because I think that it's a necessary trait to be really good at anything, especially like a competitive sport and in climbing.

And I think, yeah, while it's served me well, for sure, I've definitely had times where I've had to convince myself to dial it back or it's really difficult for me to let go of a goal if I, didn't achieve it or if I didn't do it in a way that I thought was appropriate. Like I've had times where I've like won a competition, but I was unhappy because I didn't top all the boulders or I made a mistake on a movement or I just didn't feel like I didn't climb to my best, you know?

But I've also had times where I have climbed to my best and I felt like I executed impossible and, you know, I didn't win that competition. And like, that's also okay, you know? But for me, it's just a matter of doing what I feel is my best.

Paddy: to me, you know, you come off as a very confident person. You're also a [00:17:00] very affable person, you know, and obviously belief in yourself, even belief that you can do things that are seemingly impossible is the rocket fuel that propels an athlete from good to great. Even mythical confidence. Even overconfidence is easily understandable at the crag or climbing wall.

But how do you temper that away from climbing? I guess my point is like, I feel like it could be very easy to like slide into becoming kind of like a self licking lollipop here and you seem like you don't, and so I wanna know how you do that.

Kai: So you're basically asking me why I'm not an asshole.

Paddy:  I mean, I don't believe I'm asking that, but Yeah.

Kai: I think that it is more so just about where you channel your energy, because while I think there's nothing wrong with pursuing excellence, I think that it should always be in the pursuit of finding your best, which is a very internal process. So for me, it's like what can I do to be the best?

That's not mutually exclusive from having [00:18:00] solid relationships with people around you, because we can joke and have fun, but then when it's time for me to commit to something, then I'm focused on myself. And in that moment it's almost like creating a divide between, you know, the field of play versus what happens after in your personal life.

and for me, that balance has always been very important I also, I grew up in a space where my family and my community didn't really understand or know a lot about climbing. And so when I went to the gym, it was gym time, it was competitive time. And then when I was at home, it was family time and it was friends.

And it's very relaxed. So for me it's very much a just finding ways to separate that, those worlds and making sure they don't intersect to the point where, like you said, my life becomes consumed with my goal chasing, you know.

Paddy: MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

Kai: PADDYO VO:

More from climber Kai Lightner after the break.

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Paddy: You're 26 now. You've been climbing for two decades and since you were a kid, you've been called a savant. There are a lot of stories [00:19:00] from all sorts of sports and professions of kids who've been pushed really, really far and and potentially too far too early and suffered really grave consequences.

Kai: Everything from the young baseball player who is over pitched and blows out their arm before reaching adulthood to more severe examples like the child actor who's swallowed whole by the pursuit of fame. Do you feel like you've been able to sidestep those prodigy trap doors? I definitely think that I have me my own issues for sure. I feel like, especially with climbing, I feel like I started climbing right before the sport had this massive boom into what it currently is. when I first started climbing,

there was just a lot of old school thoughts into training and, building athletes. And there was no blueprint for child, athletes who at a high level there were definitely the anomalies you had, like the Katie Browns and the Chris Sharmas and like people who came up as kids, but it was a very, very new.

Phenomenon. Like people had no idea that kids could perform at that level or that it was good to [00:20:00] hone in the talent at that level, at that age. And so when people like myself and Oshima and Mikko Cero and like people came along and like, were really pushing the sport forward in ways that people had never seen before.

There was just a lot of, um, growing pains, expectations, and things that were a bit difficult for sure. And like I've had my own issues with trying to figure out how to manage those expectations, how to perform and even try to steady own pursuit to be the best athlete that I could be. And I haven't always got the balance right, but I think that.

me, I guess the reason why I'm still climbing today and still value the sports in the way that I do, is because I have people like my mom who help keep things to, to perspective and to ground me and know when to pull me back. When she saw that I was too far into the, the game or too deep into the process to really recognize when things were going too far.

And so for that, I, I mean, of course I appreciate her. but yeah, I think it's important when you have, especially [00:21:00] kids who are pursuing something such a high level, that you have adults and people who can recognize when things cross the unhealthy barrier, because intensity is necessary to perform at your limit.

But as a kid, you're just too young to know what you don't know. And there's a lot of things where like as an adult you recognize that like, this will probably not be great in the long run, or this needs to be curbed a bit so that they can continue to go on their path in a healthy way. And so, yeah, I just, I'm grateful that my mom was that person for me.

Paddy: When you were a kid, did it feel like you were teetering between the love of the sport and trying to deal with the weight of other people's expectation?

Kai: it didn't really click to me that people expect a lot from me, and until I started competing, perhaps at a higher level or I started to get my attention in like magazines and like people wanted to sponsor me because for the longest, my motivations were not about getting people's attention.

That pursuit of being the best version of myself is just kind of ingrained into my spirit. And so it wouldn't have mattered if nobody was watching at [00:22:00] all. if I convinced myself that it's possible. It's simply a matter of, well, why can't I do it? Like, why shouldn't I do it?

I should be able to accomplish this. And so that's how I, I pushed myself. But yeah, I would say maybe like I was around 13 or 14 and people started to, set expectations and create think pieces about my climbing and, you know, kind of revere me as this person. that's kind of when I started to feel a bit more pressure.

I mean, even when I would compete at, uh, events that technically I didn't have to because I had. Pre-qualified past them. It was a level of like, big fish, small pond and waiting in the chair and having an announcer. say, you know, next up is the reigning youth national Champion, youth Pan Am champion, youth World champion, open national champion.

You know, like reading off my CV almost. It was kind of like, oh gosh, like I guess people expect things from me now, you know? And I think that's when the gravity of the moment kind of came to fruition for me. It was definitely a balance that I had to [00:23:00] find and I, I didn't always get it perfect.

there Are definitely times when I felt a bit overwhelmed or, you know, when times when I didn't win every competition and I felt like I disappointed people.

The first time where I actually really felt this was, um, it was a Youth Nationals It was actually the very first year that I was eligible for the adults. And earlier that year I had won my first open nationals. I climbed my first 14 d I had just, gone to this massive growth spurt in between that period where like, I grew like four or so inches.

And so I was trying, kind of

Paddy: you're 15 at this time? 14, 15.

Kai: I was about 15. Yeah.

So I was like kind of figuring out my body and like where things went and like, it was a little bit of a weird time in my training where I didn't really feel my strongest. And I think at the same time my, my mom had almost died. Like she had gotten really sick and was in the hospital and I had just finished filming with Real Rock, all within this period.

And so I remember I showed up at Youth Nationals that year and I just wasn't as confident. It wasn't as fit as I had wanted to be because I just had a lot of [00:24:00] distractions and I was just like, wasn't really like climbing at my best. I think I ended up like making a mistake in finals and I got like third, which is like, it was the first time I had like lost a youth competition in.

Many years. It was like a, a big gasp in the crowd and everyone was like shocked that I hadn't won. And I felt kind of embarrassed because I felt like I should have. I just remember like sitting next to my mom and my coach and neither of them really had disappointed looks in their faces because they, they knew what I had going on in life.

So they're kind of just like, it's, you know, it happens. It is what it is. Like nobody really, like, I can't say, he was like, he's like, I can't say no one cares anymore because they do. He's like, but he is like, he is like, at the end of the day, it is one competition and it's something that you're gonna learn and grow from and it's just not that deep.

So like, it like brought me to get ice cream and it was again, like, it's not that serious.

Paddy: Ice cream solves everything

Kai: Yeah. That I think that like yeah. Especially someone like me. [00:25:00] Because I, I've always put such high expectations on myself, like I'm always gonna be disappointed when I feel like I don't, uh, achieve that thing. And it can be so easy to let those thoughts spiral into something that's negative.

I was just grateful that my mom, my coaches, my friends, never held that above me\

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Paddy: to me. You seem to be at a really interesting point in your career. ' you're not climbing competition as much as you did in. Your early twenties and your teens, but you're doing things outdoors that are Absolutely bonkers. Does competition climbing still have any hold of your imagination compared to outdoor climbing?

Kai: My competition upbringing will never leave me. There's certain things that will always be instilled in me, like that idea of rising to the occasion, being able to perform when there's a lot of pressure or time constraints, like finding that flow state and being able to almost manufacture that feeling instead of having to wait for it.

I feel like when you're [00:26:00] a competition climber, you don't have a choice because there, I've literally had competitions where I was sick or had a migrate or like I threw up right before I had to go and climb, uh, a qualification round And so it's like. Competition doesn't care if you're sick or don't feel good or having a bad day.

Either you can perform on the day or you don't. So you have to snap in and figure it out. And I feel like that lesson of things really has helped me in outdoor climbing, because there's been times when the conditions weren't great or I, I had to go home, so like, I really need to get this route done now.

Or, you know,

Paddy: Like you gotta catch a flight.

Kai: like, I gotta catch the flight and go home. Right? Or,

Being able to snap in and be like, okay, like it is time. I gotta, I gotta connect and get it done. And I'm, I, I'm pretty good at that, but I, I don't think I would've had that skillset if I didn't have my competition background.

Paddy: Do you think you're done with competition entirely, or do you think that. You just for right now, wanna stay more focused on outdoor climbing?

Kai: Well, it's funny you should ask. I actually [00:27:00] have been competing a little bit lately. this Year that I could qualify.

Paddy: little salamander

Kai: the catalyst actually was that I had a ankle injury at the beginning of the year I had to have pretty intense like reconstructive surgery and the recovery was not super, short or stable really.

But it was one of those things where I was able to train in the gym still. And so, because I was training in the gym, but I really couldn't like go outside. Uh, I was like, okay, well I'm bored and I kind of want to perform, so like, why not just do a competition or two? I ended up like doing a couple National Cups in the summer and then it, it gave me points to qualify for nationals.

So I'm like, okay, well if I can qualify, why not go? So I think I'm gonna like end up doing like nationals and team trials this year. I needed somewhere to channel my energy Because it was just like, uh, I, I am, I'm not one to stay idle. I have to be doing something.

Paddy: Do you think you're gonna channel that energy towards any big goal hinting maybe at some Greek tradition [00:28:00] Olympics, maybe.

Kai: I don't know. We'll have to see. I I think I'm in a period in my life where, I've been through the rigamarole. Like I know what it's like to be on the circuit and putting your entire life on the line for competitions. And while that was a really fun time in my life, I feel like now I've found a lot more balance in the sense of like, I kind of am just doing what I enjoy and taking it day by day competition by competition.

And so if the path leads that way, then I, sure I won't close the door. But I think for me, I'm more so just focused on doing the competition that I wanna do and having fun with the process.

Paddy: So you're saying there's a chance.

Kai: Uh, I guess you never know. I will never say never.

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Paddy: One thing that I wonder about how lifelong your pursuit of climbing has been is that if you feel like this is a thing that you do, or is it who you are and was climbing life of villains and death of villains, [00:29:00] a way to assert that.

Kai: I can't say it's who I am, but I do think that climbing feels like an extension of myself it's really difficult to imagine my life without it. Being there. But I also recognize that I am bigger than my sport. I am a fully rounded person who has other interests and ambitions. And if, climbing isn't accessible at any point, then there's other things that I would like to do. But, when it came to life of villains and death of villains, it was very much a natural progression of things.

Like I had taken some time off from climbing and competing to like, go to college and start my nonprofit organization and be more active in my community. And when I decided. After college that I wanted to start, climbing and training and like being strong again, it just kind of naturally was like, okay, well let, let's set some goals for myself and let's do some things that feel attainable for me.

And, life of villains came to mind. And ended up climbing Death of Villain as well. I have to be setting a goal to be motivated towards if I'm going to, pursue something.[00:30:00]

It's really hard for me to do things casually.

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Death of Villain is a five 15 a that FA'd or did the first a in Hurricane Utah. it's basically this massive overhanging route where you almost are completely on a roof by the time you end it out. And it's basically, uh, a massive power endurance route where, there's not a lot of rests, there's not a lot of places to recover or, or think.

You kind of just have to power through from the beginning to the end it's small holes or the holes will get bigger in the cave, but like it becomes so difficult because of the angle that you have to have a lot of power and resistance.

Paddy: essentially like the ceiling of a cave. Am I correct?

Kai: Yeah, it's, it is kind of crazy. What was crazy too, on the day that I sent it, it was such a bad day. Like it was the, it was the last day of the trip that I had to give it a try. I absolutely had to leave the next day. 'cause I had to, I was like flying to Spain for like, a project that I was doing with the company.

I couldn't delay the flight anymore. Like I had to, it was either now or [00:31:00] never. And so, like, I remember showing up and like, I fell, I fell on my warmup, which like I never do. And then like, I like tried the route and like I fell lower than I normally would. And it's like the, the route is so demanding that you really only have like two or three goes before it really just kind of becomes pointless.

Paddy: Because your, your arms and your legs are just totally cooked. Like you can't,

Kai: Exactly. You're just too tired. you

And I was just like, well, this sucks. I was like, I don't But I remember I just like put my, my music in and I just sat in the corner and I like, was kind of just thinking and breathing and I was just like, well, I don't have a choice.

This has to happen right now, so I just have to like suck it up.

And get it done. And so like, I breathed and I like rehearsed the route in my mind and then I went up and then I just made sure that like every move was as accurate as possible. I was able to kind of find the flow state to where it actually felt quite easy because I had done the move so many times, I was so well rehearsed that I was just going through the motions until I was basically at the chains.

Paddy: What song did you put on?

Kai: Um, I think I was [00:32:00] listening to run This Town by Jay-Z and Rihanna. Uh,

Paddy: Yes, dude. That's the key to Kai's Climbing. It's Jay-Z and riri.

Kai: I was sitting there and it was a little tense everyone was like, kind of like watching me, like, just have this like really bad day.

And so they were just like, well, you know, you always next season. And in my brain I was like, I'm not coming back next season. Like I'm this climb right now.

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There's harder climbs out there, there, there's harder, endeavors that I could be pursuing for sure. But when I set those goals for myself at that time, that was the ceiling of my abilities of what I thought was possible. and I just had this mythical idea of what.

Five 15 was supposed to be what it was supposed to feel like. And I was just surprised, like when I, systematically like, approached the process of training and preparing and being ready for this climb. And when I got there that I was, you know, prepared for the endeavor, you know, it was like, wow, okay.

Like I, I did the right things. I feel ready for the goal and [00:33:00] executing was now because that my abilities were within the range of possibility. It was a matter of me connecting to the route and being able to find my flow

and I feel like for me, that's where the mental part of things comes in, which has always, I think, been a strong suit for me. Like I've always been able to, inch towards goals in ways where like. I don't really approach mental blocks. Like I'm able to like flow through the process I'm not going backwards and contemplating anything in the moment, you know?

Paddy: So when you realize that you can do that on the wall, how does that affect your life away from climbing? ,

Kai: My brain never stops moving or stops operating, and I've just found that, you know, I'm not impervious to being like, upset or being annoyed or being impatient. But I think that, something that I've, I guess learned or had instilled in me is like how to take a deep breath, remove, all the.

external things going on in the process and really like, think about, okay, like, what am I doing wrong? How do I improve? What am I feeling and how do I get over that feeling to [00:34:00] accomplish whatever it is that's in front of me? I actually just had this conversation with my, climbing partner, Ben Hannah, we're very opposite athletes very like emotional athlete and so he's able to sometimes tap into those emotions and push so far past his own physical limits to like do something like, it'll just be like kind of incredible to watch. But the flip side of that is that sometimes his emotions can stifle him and he'll, he'll get stuck on like a move or something for like a week and like, can't figure it out, can't push past, doesn't know what's wrong and don't really frustrate him.

Whereas a lot of times I'm the opposite where I find my flow state in movement. And so like, I don't necessarily have those moments where I'm like, the ceiling just blows off and I like fly through and like I'm able to do something well beyond, rarely I systematically can break things down and like make incremental gains until it happens,

and like really is that process impeded?

Paddy: , Climbing is this thing where you start in one spot and you have this very obvious, end point, but between those two spots are difficulties, you know, seeming impossibilities perhaps. [00:35:00] and to me that, seems metaphoric of personal relationships. Do you feel like. In that way, doing something like climbing death of villains or other goals in outdoor climbing, potentially makes you better in your personal relationships because you're able to see what is most important and brush away the things that are, you know, too emotional or, you know, the noise from other people or other things. Fear even.

Kai: Um, perhaps, yeah, I think it's also one of those things where, yeah, because I've spent a lot of my career where like there were a lot of expectations attached to my, uh, performance or my climbing. I feel like I've kind of had to find a way of like removing that from the process and really being able to connect with how I feel, how to find my best completely internal while ignoring what's external.

And I feel like it definitely does help me sometimes when I'm in real life where we're trying to solve a problem or where I'm like having a debate or, you know, there's like a large scale project or something where like it could be difficult to sift through [00:36:00] the weeds and figure out what's going on. I'm pretty good mentally at being able to like sit down, figure out what's going on and what's the bottleneck and like kind of removing the rest and like addressing that, that problem.

Paddy: So in this way you could say that climbing has made you a better person.

Kai: Well, yeah. Well, yeah, I think so.

But you can find that in anything. climbing was that thing for me, but like that idea of being able to, learn from failure and, process effect that sometimes not achieving something the first go around isn't, a failure, but a learning opportunity to grow and like approaching things systematically and realizing that it's not gonna happen immediately.

Sometimes it's gonna take a long time. Like approaching long-term goal planning and systematically breaking things down to something that's approachable is like, that's so translative to everything in life. Anything that's worth pursuing, I think

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Beating your head up against the wall when it comes to anything, it's just not gonna get you anywhere. if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, or you ref refuse to address [00:37:00] your weaknesses or any glaring problems that are holding you back, you can work tirelessly at the same thing forever, but you've never addressed a thing that's actually keeping you from achieving your goals.

And so you gotta step back and, and not avoid the difficult things in life. And I feel like that has definitely translated in my, in my real life, where it's like being able to holistically analyze situations, people, you know, problems and just not ignore the elephant in the room, like actually address the problems at hand,

Paddy: It sounds like what you're saying is that climbing has helped you, stop running, turn around and look at the things that are character defects and work on them. Am I right?

Kai: Absolutely. Climbing has been my catalyst to, you know, emotional maturity It definitely had to be my responsibility to recognize the weaknesses that I have and how to address them if I wanted to be the best version of myself and achieve the goals I had in life.

And I think that that's something that we all have to do, especially as we become adults and things get hard, [00:38:00] relationships get hard. Life just gets hard. You have to find sustainable ways to handle your emotions

I feel like we all can relate to having those days, those weeks, those time of life where it's just like, damn, like the, the

Paddy: Yeah.

Kai: Those times where just life is just whooping your ass and you're like, what? What am, what am I going to do? But it's like the minute you succumb to that feeling and you stop addressing the problems and just believing you're not worthy, I feel like that's when you, you lose the battle, right? and so it's like that idea of being able to like, okay, like it sucks.

I might need a cry day, but like after that cry day, I gotta figure out what the problem is and how to move forward. And I feel like sports taught me how to do that at such a young age that now it just, it almost seems like second nature to where I can't even imagine not approaching life in that way, to be honest.

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

Paddy: It is now time for the final ramble. [00:39:00] One piece of gear you can't live without.

Kai: Well, a harness because,

Paddy: Hahaha

Kai: because, duh.

Paddy: Yeah,

Kai: Although, I guess if you're Alex Honnold, then that doesn't matter.

Paddy: yeah. Right. The amount of money that guy saves because he doesn't need a harness.

Kai: Well, the amount of money he's made from not wearing a harness,

Paddy: Booya. Best outdoor snack,

Kai: dried mangoes, I really like dried mangoes.

Paddy: Okay. I have to say that I was hoping that you were gonna say this because when you and I climbed together, I saw you absolutely mollar-ing, gnawing on dried mangoes,

i've never seen somebody just destroy dried mangoes so much, and I get it delicious.

It's like candy.

Kai: There's so good. And it's just always been like a, a snack. I love, I have to bring it

Paddy: what is your hottest outdoor hot take?

Kai: Ooh, that's a good one.

Paddy: Mm-hmm.

Kai: Okay. Okay. Okay. My hottest outdoor hot take is that sometimes it is okay to bring music to the crag

Paddy: [00:40:00] Really?

Kai: Yes.

You have to be respectful of the space because you know, everyone's in nature and enjoying the process. You don't want to impede on anyone's experience, but I feel like, yeah, like if you're around the right people, if you're around the right environment, I don't think it's always a bad thing to bring music or a speaker to the crag.

Paddy: Do you think if you bring a speaker and you play Jay-Z and riri, everybody's gonna just absolutely be sending everything around them.

Kai: Well, there's only one way to find out.

Paddy: MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

Kai Lightner is a professional climber and the founder of the nonprofit Climbing For Change. If you want to see some of his bonkers climbing, may I suggest watching the Reel Rock film Death of Villains, Kai's famed First Ascent where he turns into Spider-Man after listening to JayZ. Check out more of Kai's prowess of balance by following him on Instagram at Kai Lightner. And find out more about Climbing For Change by visiting Climbing 4 Change dot [00:41:00] com, that's four as in the number.

And as always, please remember that we want to hear from you, because we make this show but really it belongs to you Sooo, email your pod reactions, guest nominations, tips on how to wash that funky funk outta long johns, and whatever else you want to tell and/or ask us to Outside Podcast At Outside Inc Dot Com.

The Outside Podcast is hosted and produced by me, Paddy O'Connell. But you can call me PaddyO. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard, Micah "I'm not afraid of climbing, climbing is afraid of me, also please help me get down from up here" Abrams. Music and Sound Design by Robbie Carver. And booking and research by Maren Larsen.

The Outside Podcast is made possible by our Outside Plus members. Learn about all the extra rad benefits and become a member yourself [00:42:00] at Outside Online Dot Com Slash Pod Plus.