Pack Rafting, “Hell Biking”, and Other Alaskan Sufferfests, with Roman Dial

Paddy: Typically when we talk about like humans being a part of the natural landscape, we talk about it as a positive, but in, it seems to me that what you were feeling was this like very negative impact of the dark and the cold. Did it feel, isolating then in that way?

Roman: I guess it did feel isolating too. But on the other hand, it also. kind of allows everybody to kind of band together, you're from Chicago, and When I lived in Fairbanks, the people who seemed get along the best with the dark and the cold and the sort of isolation were people from the Midwest.

Um, you know, and,

Paddy: We know of the deep, dark, hard winters. Yes, it's true.

Roman: well, not only that, like, you know, the people from Anchorage would always complain. They were like, oh, it's dark, and the mountains are so far away. And the people from Colorado were like, you know, I'm gonna leave the state 'cause there's nothing to do here. But the Midwesterners, you know, they were used to being, you know, far away from the mountains or far away from nature, and they were really good at potlucks and, you know, uh, playing games and, chatting, you know, so I, I

Paddy: This dark ain't that bad if you [00:01:00] got some casseroles, you know,

Roman: Yeah, that's about it. Exactly. Yeah.

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PADDYO VO:

 Multi-sport adventures are a rite of passage in the outdoors, and there are lots of ways to do them. In Southern California, there’s the Trifecta, where you ski or snowboard, mountain bike, and surf all in the same day. There’s the Jackson Hole Picnic, in which you bike from town to Jenny Lake, swim across the lake, climb the Grand Teton, and then do it all in reverse. Salida, Colorado has its annual Pole Paddle Push race, which combines backcountry skiing, biking, and kayaking.

The thing these endeavors share is a healthy balance between testing your mountain mettle and having a goofy good time. No one’s taking these things too seriously, and it’s not the kind of thing you organize your season around—it’s more about catching a wild hair and then talking-slash-shaming your buddies into joining [00:02:00] you. But there is a subset of outdoorsfolk who take the multi-sport concept to grueling and bizarre extremes. These folks seem less interested in adventure and more interested in sufferfests designed to push their mental and physical endurance to the breaking point.

As an unrepentant lover of all things outdoors (except climbing—sorry climbing), I find these people fascinating, because I can’t square their apparent love of discomfort with my own experiences of what makes multi-sporting so fulfilling. Which, to be fair, is a combination of the natural beauty, the exhilaration, the hilarious goofiness, and the snacks. So I decided to ask an expert on the topic: Alaska’s Roman Dial.

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Calling Roman a multi-sport athlete is like calling Jimi Hendrix a loud guitarist—it’s accurate, while also missing the point. By foot, wheel, and water, Roman has been engaged in a single 50-year exploration of both the vast, [00:03:00] trail-less expanse of Alaska and his own mind, body, and soul.

In the 80s, he participated in some of the first wilderness races, which is where he got the idea for packrafting. Mind you, packrafts didn’t exist at that point. So Roman and some pals invented them. Armed with the ability to easily cover huge distances by floating Alaska’s abundant rivers, he began bringing packrafts on all adventures. He insists these were never about suffering, but they sure sound awful.

Like the time he decided to see how far he could hike with a single backpack of gear and food. Spoiler, he got 628 miles in 24 days. Or the time he completed an 800 mile traverse of the Brooks range, by packraft, mountain bike, and foot. Or when he invented “canopy trekking”, using a crossbow to set ropes between trees and see how many days he could go without [00:04:00] touching the ground. Then there’s “hell biking”, which is basically just backpacking, but you carry a bike the whole way and, occasionally, when the terrain allows,  you ride it. Roman once hell biked 775 miles through the Alaska Range.

All of this makes Roman sound crazy, but when he wasn’t LARPing as a masochist with too much GoreTex, Roman spent over 30 years as a professor of science and mathematics at Alaska Pacific University, where he used his remarkable outdoor skills to lead research expeditions into the Alaskan bush. He also used his considerable people skills to mentor generations of scientists, all of which is beautifully captured in a new film about Roman’s life, “Arctic Alchemy.”

If Roman’s name sounds familiar, it might be because he made headlines several years ago. After his son disappeared in a Costa Rican jungle, Roman led a two-year effort to find his son’s remains. [00:05:00] The tragedy briefly gave the world a glimpse of Roman’s skills, determination, and intellect, and he quickly returned to the only place where he could make sense of it all: back home in Alaska

After five decades devoted to seeing just how far you can go with a raft, a bike, and a decent pair of boots, Roman’s perspective on life, adventure, and loss is unlike any I’ve heard. And I think you’ll agree.

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Paddy: First things first, burnt toast. What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment? Outside.

Roman: Wow. The last hilarious moment outside I think would have to be, I'd heard that there were some Red Northern lights, like really big, you know, bright northern lights, and so we hopped in the car and drove up to the mountains and of course got there too late. You know, everybody was leaving.

The lights had already done their show, and we missed it. It felt a lot like when I go fishing and I hear that the salmon are running big, you know, I drive four hours and I [00:06:00] get there and they're all done.

Paddy: that's why they call it fishing, not catching. Right.

Roman: absolutely.

Paddy: Well for a guy with your history of absolute chaos outside, I kind of think that missing out on some Northern lights is kind of a, a hilarious thing to be humbled by. But I digress. We'll get into all of that. Alright, let's get into it.

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Your captivation with Alaska started in 1970. You were nine years old and you lived with your uncles in a mining camp.

Was it the contrast of machinery versus the wilds of the bush that was so captivating? Was it the hearty humans working in the mine? Did it feel like you were on another planet ? What exactly like grabbed a hold of your heart at such a young age?

Roman: Sure. That's a great question. Uh, we lived in like the bunkhouse, so that was like the little company town of like three buildings. And so my uncles were, you know, working miles away. I don't think I ever actually saw where they worked. And so I [00:07:00] was just left alone all day, to, you know, do what I wanted to do.

And I had a little motorcycle and, uh, my uncle's wolf dog to keep me company and a 22 rifle. So, um, you know, I just got to wander around like Huck Finn, you know,

Paddy: was gonna say, this sounds like very Dennis the Menace meets Huckleberry Finn, like

Roman: it Yeah, it was, and uh, you know, I was sort of a nature kid at the time anyway it was great for me to be able to wander around and do whatever I wanted and I was pretty self-sufficient and kind of learned to take care of myself and yeah, it was an awesome, it was an awesome experience.

Paddy: So then you return to Alaska for summers when you're 12 and 14, you finish high school early at 16 to decide to attend University of Alaska Fairbanks. At this point, I think it's pretty fair to say that you are like all in on Alaska, but during your freshman year, you have a hard time of it. You wrote, after my first winter as a college freshman in Alaska, I nearly left the state never to return.

The dark and the distance from [00:08:00] home isolated me the apparent lack of culture, perhaps simply the over dominance of the human by the natural disoriented me. Can you tell me what exactly happened and what was the culture you were used to and how was that lacking in Alaska?

Roman: I moved from Virginia where I'd gone to high school and lived in the suburbs where everything was sort of dominated by social scenes. You know, I mean, like, how I felt each day kind of had to do with what it was like when I was at school or how my parents were, dealing with me and, and that sort of thing.

It was very socialized. And then when I moved to Alaska, uh, and spent my first winter, I discovered that, the darkness especially and the cold secondarily, uh, just created feelings for everybody. It influenced everybody. So it wasn't the social interactions. So that gave everybody, their own independent feelings.

Everybody at the same time simultaneously was affected by, you know, the darkness and the cold. And so that was the first time I'd ever really seen how, you know, [00:09:00] humans could just still be kind of part of the natural landscape so that their, their whole day to day was dominated by what was going on, outside of their social life.

Paddy: But typically when we talk about like humans being a part of the natural landscape, we talk about it as a positive, but in, it seems to me that what you were feeling was this like very negative impact of the dark and the cold. Did it feel, isolating then in that way?

Roman: I guess it did feel isolating too. But on the other hand, it also. kind of allows everybody to kind of band together, you're from Chicago, and When I lived in Fairbanks, the people who seemed get along the best with the dark and the cold and the sort of isolation were people from the Midwest.

Um, you know, and,

Paddy: We know of the deep, dark, hard winters. Yes, it's true.

Roman: well, not only that, like, you know, the people from Anchorage would always complain. They were like, oh, it's dark, and the mountains are so far away. And the people from Colorado were like, you know, I'm gonna leave the state 'cause there's nothing to do here. But the Midwesterners, you know, they were used to being, you know, far away from the mountains or far away [00:10:00] from nature, and they were really good at potlucks and, you know, uh, playing games and, chatting, you know, so I, I

Paddy: This dark ain't that bad if you got some casseroles, you know,

Roman: Yeah, that's about it. Exactly. Yeah.

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Paddy: Well, you also wrote that after that winter you spent your following summer, quote, climbing mountains, working canneries and hitching the empty highways, and I realized I had to stay. So why, what switched? Was it just that the sun came out and you were like, oh no, I can go like frolicking in the mountains, or was it something deeper than that?

Roman: Yeah, I, that's a big part of it. I mean, ' cause when the sun comes out, get the opposite feeling you had all winter. You're just energized and, uh, everything seems great. I guess I liked having my psyche sort of tuned into, you know, the natural, periodicity of the sun.

You know, the darkness in the winter kind of made me more intellectual and, and, and socialized. And then in the summer, uh, you know, I ran around and had all kinds of adventures in Wild Alaska, which is, fantastic. It doesn't get dark. So you can kind of get yourself into [00:11:00] trouble and then get yourself back out.

Paddy: Well, let's dig into that because from there starts your love affair, ongoing love affair with Alaska and the wild therein, and your career as an outdoors person. There has been, as this kind of epic generalist, you know, you're a do everything-ist and, even an an originator of, let's call them.

Oddball mountain sports. Now you've done some remarkable things combining, climbing, hiking, biking, rafting, skiing, and on and on, but you are not a specialist. So what is it about learning something new or say as you did with something like pack rafting or canopy trekking and a sports seriously called hell biking?

What is it about inventing something new that really captures your interest?

Roman: Um, boy, you really did your homework, Paddy. I've thought about this. Yeah. You know, I'm, kind of a. Compulsive analyst, I think. What it seems like is, first of all, when I'm exposed to some sort of new technology I often can see how I could apply it.

the First time I went ice skating, I [00:12:00] was like in my fifties and I'd sort of blown it off. and I don't mean just like ice skating with hockey skates or figure skates, I mean like this sort of thing they call wild ice up here

Paddy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

Roman: And, um, and I'd been invited multiple times and finally I was like, yeah, sure, let's, I'll go.

And I put them on. And skated across, you know, the first lake and then hiked, took 'em off ' cause they clip onto your cross country ski shoes and took 'em off and hiked to the second lake and skied across the second lake.

And was just blown away by how different the two lakes were and how easy it was to move. and by the third lake I thought, wow, I would like to, you know, ice skate to the Alaska range. Like all of a sudden I could see, you know, what these things could do.

Paddy: but see this Roman, this is the thing about you that interests me so much. Because most people would have the reaction of like, this is an incredible experience I'm having. This is so cool. I should maybe come back and do this again a handful of times this winter.

Or maybe once, . But you go from, oh, cool. , The obvious next step is to like, [00:13:00] see if I can navigate, hundreds of miles on frozen, lakes through the Alaskan wilds.

Like you do realize that that is a leap that like not many people, if any, make right. So like what is that? Where does that come from?

Roman: Right. Well, and it's true like within a week, I went on, like, I put on this ice skates for the first time on Sunday, and the following Friday, I'd bought my own p you know, by the following Friday I'd bought my own pair and, and then we were, uh. I was chatting with another friend about, uh, ice skating a hundred miles up in the Arctic.

And by Saturday morning we were launched on this a hundred mile ice skate trip up in the Arctic.

Paddy: You've already done it.

Roman: Oh yeah, I did it like the first week I tried ice skating. 'cause it, I just thought, yeah, this is awesome. and so, but to answer your

Paddy: This is hilarious. Roman

Roman: yeah, I know it is. It's, but to answer your question, here's what I think it is, is like, over time when you pick up something new, and it's kind of a challenge at first.

You're kind of like, oh, you know, like, oh, these skates kind of hurt [00:14:00] my feet, you know, and oh, you know, I gotta, it's hard to get standing up straight. Um, maybe I don't really like this. But then, uh, a little while later, you know, it could be, you know, hours or days or weeks or years, you know, you're kind of like.

Wow, I'm learning so much and I'm learning it so quickly. I love this. Like, for example, with ice skating, it was not necessarily like I learned to skate backwards or jump over things, but just the kind of the terrain that you could deal with.

Like, I really enjoyed that. So at some point you're learning so much new experiences so quickly, you know, instead of going, oh, you're going, ah, and then after a while, at least for me, you get to the point where, you know, you've kind of already been doing it for a while and the next increment of time doesn't really give you that much new experience, and you're kind of like, oh yeah, this again, and that's when I kind of want to jump to something else.

So I kind of want that sweet spot where you're learning, you know, it's on that. I like the, the way a learning curve really looks to me is it's flat at the start over time. You don't learn that much over time, and then you start to learn a lot, and then it starts to level off again. And, know, to become [00:15:00] a master, it's that last 10%.

I think Yvonne Chouinard said, you know,

Paddy: Yeah. Yeah.

Roman: you've gotta spend a lot of time to get that last 10%. And I'd rather, life is too short, there's too many things to do, and I'd rather not spend that last 10% to become a master. I, I'd like to go try, you know, something else. And there's always something else to do.

Paddy: Is the learning so excitable to you? It's so new, it's so full of, questions of what ifs that, that you wanna stay in this perpetual state of learning?

Roman: yeah, I guess that's what it is. It's like I do, I really like, the novelty, you know, we all like novelty, I think. And so there's, you, you're just getting the most novelty per unit time, you know, uh, right there in the middle of of that learning curve. And so I really like being there the other thing that I really do like is discovering things for myself as opposed to sort of, seeing experience through others. So I really like to have experiences that are novel to me, and I really enjoy that. And if everybody else is doing it, then it, it's not quite as interesting,

Paddy: Well that's, that's funny to me [00:16:00] because I feel like if there was like an international, fraternity of the novel, you would be president of this thing because so much of your outdoor time to me it's like sport adjacent or like sport cornucopia-ism if that can be a thing, you know, like hell, biking isn't really mountain biking.

Pack rafting isn't really rafting or kayaking. Canopy trekking is kind of like if Tarzan had a fleet farm and an REI membership, so like do you enjoy going for just a bike ride or just a run? Do you ever ride a ski lift just to spin some laps or does your outdoor time always have to be in service of this larger novelty exploration does it always have to combine multiple pursuits?

Roman: Okay. Yeah. Uh, you, you are really good. No, I, um, I walk my dog. I have a dog. You know, I've raised, I've raised two kids. You know, I have a wife who doesn't, like to go off trail on every trip, you know, and, uh, [00:17:00] doesn't like to carry a bunch of stuff, you know? So, no, I have a normal side to my life, if you want to think of it that way.

And I certainly do just go for, trail rides. I love to mountain bike on trail rides. I have a fat bike that I ride in the winter on a, trail almost daily that I really like. And then, uh, in the summer, there's a lot of little pack craft floats I like to do. Or I used to run a lot of whitewater whitewater runs that I did that where local.

But I, if I'm gonna go do a big trip, you know, I don't, it's hard to leave the state because there's so many cool things to do here. And one of the beautiful things about Alaska is, to me at least, is that there really are very few trails. And so you have to find your own way. And then there's, you know, no bridges over the river, so you have to deal with the rivers and the mountains are big.

It's just, it's kind of neat to be able to like. Experience landscapes, fully,

, i never think of what we're doing as a stunt. I always feel like it's like a novel but efficient way of crossing landscape.

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Paddy: So much of your adventuring really is. Out there, let's call it, and they either are [00:18:00] hitting the target of or on the periphery of suffer fests and suffer fests are an interesting kind of paradoxical and diabolical part of outdoor big air quotes here. Fun. You know, designing a trip that is purposely brutal, seeing how bad things can get and still make it through, is a hilarious thing that we do to ourselves.

And the sufferfest of yours that stand out to me are the expeditions through the Alaska Range the Brooks Range. These like weeks long adventures, hundreds of miles, huge packs, pack rafts and bikes, and no trails and bush so thick. It takes you hours to go. One mile bogs, raging Rivers, waterfalls, huge waves, giant peaks, cliffs, on and on and on.

Truly epic backcountry travel. Now in our experience, you know, the folks that we chat with here on the show. Who are really good at endurance of any kind, have somewhat of a, let's call it masochistic streak, or at least a comfort with pain that is unique and provides them a slightly different [00:19:00] perspective when the going gets tough.

Do you have this, and if so, what is it? What's it like?

Roman: Yeah, I don't know. I don't really think I do. I know people who do have like really high tolerances for pain, um, and discomfort. And Like imagine there's like the bowl of comfort and maybe I'm at the bottom of the bowl of comfort, but I do feel like I'm on a little hill at the bottom of the bowl, you know?

And so, and so I, I feel like, I used to do these big adventure races. I did, I dunno, a half dozen of 'em, the eco challenge and the raid gise. I was always shocked by how many people who were there who thought that it's all about suffering. And if you're not suffering, you're not really doing the race.

Right. You know, and I kind of came from the wilderness school. And in the wilderness school, you don't want to suffer. There's so much suffering and discomfort where you're at just being out there, you know, that you need to figure out a way not to suffer. For example, if you get a little hole in your pants, you can really suffer if you just let that hole get bigger and bigger until the pant leg rips off and your legs getting [00:20:00] rubbed raw by the brush. You know, now that's real suffering. But why do that? I really like, you know what Shakespeare said, you know, a stitch in time saves nine.

And so as soon as you have a little hole in those pants, stitch it up so that you don't have to suffer. your shoes and socks are wet all day. You know, like basically in Alaska, you put your shoes on and step off the road and within 15 minutes your shoes and socks are wet and they're gonna be wet all day.

uh, a neophyte might say, God, I really hate that. I'm gonna put my dry socks on in the morning, you know, the ones I slept in. And then those socks are all wet and miserable, and so they're gonna be wet and miserable forever, you know, because they don't have any dry socks. So I always make a point of having a pair of dry socks that I only sleep in.

You know, I never hike in 'em and I, they stay dry. I think the National Outdoor Leadership School folks call 'em Sacred Socks. I have always tried to pride myself, , in what would people would consider to be an uncomfortable spot to be comfortable, you know, like without having a bunch of extra stuff,

Paddy: how do you find that comfort and say something like, when you're [00:21:00] hell biking through, brush that is, uh, so thick that you have to turn the handlebars sideways so they're in line with the front tire. So you can push it through, you're taking the pedals off of the bike, so you can push through, you have to drop the bike entirely so that you can get through and make a path with your pack, and then come back for the bike and you're going something like, a mile every four hours.

Like, these are things that you've described in your, in your trips. are you not feeling like, oh my God, this is so terrible in those situations?

Roman: Oh yeah, of course. I mean, I feel pain, like if I cut my hand it hurts. Yeah, absolutely. You know, but I just try not to cut my hand very often, you know? And so I try to avoid those, places that have the brush. And sometimes you just have to, it's like getting a flat tire in the rain, you know, we don't, we don't look for flat tires in the rain, but sometimes we get the flat tire in the rain and we just deal with it and patch, you know, change the tire and drive off even though we got wet.

Paddy: But is your superpower your ability to like not focus on that and not let that thing [00:22:00] become the thing that breaks you? It's just like, this is part of it and we can move past it and get to the good thing.

Roman: I think, yeah, that's, I don't know if I'd call that a superpower, but I think all of us sort of do have that ability to realize that this too will pass. You know what I mean? Like every storm ends, um, you know, there, there is no infinite brush, you know, um, you can, you know, if you're, if you're really feeling miserable, we can, let's eat something.

And if we don't have any food, you know, let's make a fire and, we can kind of adjust our attitudes, as necessary.

Paddy: what about your, how far can I get with a single pack adventures? Are those a kind of sport in your mind, or are those something different?

Roman: Okay. Yeah. Well, I've only done one of those, like how far can I go with one bag of food? There was one and only one. And, um,

Paddy: Is that the reason why there was only one?

Roman: well, I mean, I kind of, answered the question that I wanted to answer and to do it, that's a big investment in time and, um, and energy it took 20 years for me from concept to, execution with that. and It [00:23:00] was a really, a fantastic experience and I learned a lot and I wouldn't really call it a suffer fest. I mean, I wore a hole in my shoe in the first few days.

Because the brush, there's like just little short bushes and they have a, coating of resin on the stems. They're called resin birch or dwarf birch. they look like little sugar crystals on the stem they're there to keep animals from eating 'em.

And, and they're like, it's like sandpaper and it was at the beginning of the trip. you know, I wasn't listening to my Shakespeare mantra to stop and stitch 'em up. And I, I thought, well, we're gonna get out of the birch, but we never did. And it wore a hole through my shoe and then threw my sock and into my foot. And this was like within the first few days of this, you know, three week long, 600 mile trip. so that's, I hurt.

I, I hurt myself there, but I, you know, I patched the hole up and then I had to patch the other side before it became a hole. I had to take my sleep socks. This was a bummer, you know, my sacred sleep socks. I had to like, use those because I'd worn a hole in the other socks, my hiking socks.

but At first it was uncomfortable. but, you know, we [00:24:00] realized that if we traveled 12 hours a day and camped for 12 hours, so each day was like a work, a 12 hour work day, and then a 12 hour, Rest portion of the day.

then we didn't really wear ourselves out. In fact, we accelerated as we continued,

Paddy: so would, you even describe your outdoor pursuits over last handful of decades as suffer fests? Or would you say these are like very difficult joy fests with a small side of shittiness here and there?

Roman: yeah, I would, I wouldn't call 'em suffer fests, you know? Like, I feel like if I'm suffering, I'm doing something wrong, you know? like I don't want suffer,

I think that's just being part of alive. I think that's being part of a, living organism is sort of, avoiding suffering and pain and discomfort while still experiencing life,

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PADDYO VO:

More from Roman Dial after the break.

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Paddy: The Alaska back country is really like [00:25:00] your muse and these adventures are about crossing large swaths of land slowly and methodically, whether on foot or bike or by pack craft, what have you. is it that you physically prefer that type of travel, or is there something kind of more philosophical about why this appeals to you?

Well.

Roman: I, I think it's both. And that's one reason I'm somewhat like addicted to it, is that it's both philosophical, but it's also physical, you know, and emotional. Let's just say Phil philosophy is sort of something that takes place in the human brain. That's sort of the mental aspect. and then obviously the physical, physical aspect is moving, you know, across a landscape. And, there's an emotional part and that's kind of like, you know, the lizard brain that's somewhere buried beneath the human brain.

That lizard brain activates, you know, hormones that flood through your system. And that's kind of your feelings or your emotions. that allows us to think about things and remember things.

And so for me to be in wild places, and especially off trail, you know, [00:26:00] puts all that together. And I, and I, I find it extremely satisfying, and I think I've been interested in doing that, since I, you know, walked. uh, outta my grandmother's farm when I was like a little boy and, and experienced the woods for the first time.

Paddy: What about your adventure time, your outdoor time differing at all from when you're doing research versus when you're just doing it for your personal enjoyment? You know, I'm thinking specifically like the expedition in the new film, Arctic Alchemy, which you're featured in, is explicitly in service of research.

So is there a different level of enjoyment or engagement that happens? Or is it all one and the same for you?

Um, well, uh, that's a great question. And so, I have this analytic side. It's kind of like a curse, you know, like, um, I can't help myself when I was just like a little kid, I wanted just to be a scientist, and I liked just wandering around in the woods and they were wondrous to me. You know, like I liked seeing things and I liked going home and reading about 'em and going to the library and learning more than going back out and bringing little, animals and [00:27:00] plants, cool plants into my house and taking care of them and seeing them and very kind of scientific kid stuff.

Roman: and then, you know, like everybody, my hormones started pumping and I got interested in girls and, and the adventure sports I kind of lost interest in the science and that lasted for a long time until I went to get my PhD and I needed to, um.

You know, have a project. I thought I might as well combine, the rope skills that I have with, scientific questions. And at the time, the canopy of rainforest was sort of considered a, a real unknown area. And I had a, an old climbing partner, Carl Tobin, who was also working on a PhD program, and he was willing to come help me.

And so we set all this stuff up in the canopy. I got to use, rope skills and I got to be up high where it's kind of scary, you know? So I was sort of stimulated and then I realized how beautiful it is, to be up high and see the forest or the woods below you, and then to do these experiments and bump, bump the system.

And then I, you know, I was like, wow, I need to know statistics. So I got really into statistics. So it kind of ticked all those boxes, [00:28:00] you know, the emotional, the mental and the physical, you know, it was all there. Um,

Paddy: like, uh, you know, what you're saying is that there really is no difference. Like if you get to combine research with your outdoor time, it's a plus. It doesn't have to happen, but when it happens, there's no real difference in those adventures in your eyes.

Roman: it true that's, I think that's exactly it. And, um, the better part about it though, like now I kind of don't really want to just do. Plain old. 'cause I've been doing the science stuff for about seven or eight years now, and it's extremely satisfying, you come home and look at the data and it's kind of like looking at the photographs that you took on a trip, you know, or reading your journal except you get all these new insights and then, you read other people's papers.

And then as I write it up, you know, I kind of process it, like, my feeling is I gotta take stuff into my head and work on it and then have it come out my fingers in some sort of writing. And then I've kind of made sense of it. that is really rewarding. And I, I, like, I have a fantasy right now, like every 10 years, for the last 30 years, I guess, or 40 years.

I, well at least like from in 1986, I, [00:29:00] I traversed the whole Brooks Range. And then, and 1996, I traversed the Alaska range. With mountain bikes. And then in 2006, I did that how far can I go with a one bag of food. and then 2016, that's when I found my son.

And, uh, so that doesn't really fit into that too well, although that whole experience was exceptionally challenging.

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Paddy: just wanna acknowledge, like, I know you brought up your son. I don't wanna gloss over that.

I appreciate you sharing that. Is that something that you wanna make sure is in this discussion? Do you want to talk about that more or do you not?

Roman: uh, you know, um, it doesn't bother me to talk about it. I mean, I, wrote a book about it and I had to talk about it, um, for several years while I was looking for him. You know, so I mean, it's always a painful. thing to think about. I mean, I think about him every day. It doesn't go away.

It's, it's the worst thing that can happen to you. But I mean, if you, have a question and you want me to answer it, I'd give it a go.

Paddy: I, I guess I'm wondering if

Roman: you think that losing your son has changed your relationship with adventuring [00:30:00] or to the outdoors overall?

Oh yeah, absolutely. I, I mean, one thing that I learned, and I'm embarrassed to sort of admit it, is that, back when, you know, I was looking for my son, I, I was so painful to have to think about having lost him, that it made me realize How I'd never even been aware of that, the possibility of that feeling for people who loved me. I don't really believe in the afterlife. You know, I don't think I'm going to heaven or hell. I think that when I'm dead, I'm, dead. I won't even know that I'm dead, but the people that are left behind, they're the ones who know that you're dead. They're the ones who feel the loss. And I didn't realize that. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't realize that until I was in my fifties. And then I thought, wow. You know, like, what if I had died doing the crazy things that I did?

How would my parents have felt? How would you know my wife and kids have felt? And so I absolutely dialed back the risk that I took. You know, I, I remember when I went down to look for Roman, you know, Peggy, my wife, she said, look, be careful. I don't wanna lose both my Romans, you know.

Paddy: Oh, uh, yeah.

Roman: My risk tolerance got dialed back [00:31:00] quite a bit more just because, you know, I didn't wanna put anybody through what I had to go through.

Paddy: Mm. Well, thank you for being open to talk about this. I appreciate you

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Roman: so now here we are, like in 2026, it's coming up and I'm kind of like, well, what a, I kind of want to do another one of these sort of big decatal, I don't know if challenge is the right word, I don't know if creation is the, I don't know what the right word is.

I just know that I, there's something I want to do

Paddy: Do you have anything in mind?

Roman: I have a lot of things in mind. I just, I, I don't know what it's going to be. Yeah, it's, it's kind of funny. Um.

Paddy: like how many different sports you want to combine into all of the sports? Is that what we're working with on this one? Will you have roller skates

Roman: Absolutely no roller skates. Well, um, it, that's a really good question. I think what it depends on is like how long it's gonna be and 'cause like if it's, if it were to start in April, then I'd want to have skis, you know? Um, I don't really like snow shoes you know, if it's gonna go into the fall, maybe [00:32:00] I'll bring a rifle and shoot a caribou or a moose on my way out not that I, you know, I love to hunt, but I mean, I, I love to eat wild game meat.

so if I, you know, like a dream trip, like it would be, here's what would be really cool is to follow the western arctic caribou herd as they migrate. north at one point it was the largest caribou herd in the world. And it would be fun just to follow their trails, in the snow, you know, when they start migrating.

After I get to their end of their migration, you know, hike, with a, a light pack do a long barrel hike. We call 'em now, like where I hike from barrel to barrel. Mm-hmm. Yep. where the walking's really good in the arctic. And then, um, I'd like to pick up a pack raft, like a sporty little pack raft.

And then, uh, hike pack raft. Hike pack raft. Hike pack raft. I kind of like hike a day. Float a day, hike a day. Float a I like, I like that

Paddy: I guess the answer is just in your ideating here. Like the answer is yes, it will combine all of the, all of the things. I don't, I, you know what, it's gonna be really fun to see a photo of you riding a caribou out of the, out of the back [00:33:00] country in Alaska, you know, with a hang glider, uh, on your shoulders, pack, raft, on your butt and, and, and ice skates on your feet.

Roman: right. Well, yeah, the ice skates. I do like the ice skates. I think, um,

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Paddy: your research work is focused mostly on biology and science, but you also have two degrees in mathematics. You know, even through college, my time studying math was in classes that had like snack time and building blocks and carpet squares for nap time. So please excuse my ignorance and stupidity here, but. I don't know. To me, you don't really like strike me as a math guy, like given your love of the outdoors and science, I'd think that you would've ended up as like a geologist or like wildlife biologist, something that kind of like snags, intellect, and then it shows up like smack dab into the real world right there.

You can hold it and feel it and touch it. Mathematics to me seems like extra cerebral and often, [00:34:00] like very far out there and hard to understand and it seems like it, it wouldn't fold in so well to a guy like you, someone who's a, obsessed as you are with the massiveness of earth, and having your boots on the ground in that earth.

So like, what's the appeal? Or am I completely off here?

Roman: Well, uh, yeah, that's, those are, those are really good. That's a really good question. I, I'd say for example, the simple math is something like, every time I load up my pack with food, you know, it's heavier math is just sort of like a quantitative logic that you can use to, simplify reality

In the early eighties, I, I did the first, uh, wilderness classics, like the first three or four of 'em, where the rules were really simple. You go from point A to point B across some big chunk of Alaska, you know, like a hundred miles to 300 miles.

And the rules were, brutally simple. Everything you needed, you had to take with you from the beginning to the end, including food. And you couldn't use any roads and you couldn't use any motorized vehicles or pack animals [00:35:00] or get any help from somebody outside of the race. And so, you know, that kind of taught me, Hey, if you don't want to go fast, don't carry much stuff. , If you have a hundred pound pack and you carry one more pound, it doesn't really make any difference. But if you're running a marathon or an ultra.

Paddy: Yeah.

Roman: And you add one more pound, man, you're gonna lose that race if you're running at a race. You know what I mean? Because that one pound makes a huge difference. I predicted that, um, like an airplane, like if you, how far can an airplane fly? Well, if you put too much fuel in the airplane, it can't even get off the ground.

But if you don't have any fuel in the airplane, it can't fly either. So there's some optimal amount of fuel and basically it's the amount of fuel that you can, you can carry, you know, and still get off the ground.

But when you're like doing a wilderness race or an adventure race, you're moving nonstop. So you need a lot of calories. So can't go short on food. So I have a mathematical proof of it and it's just an Ari, it's just arithmetic.

So I say food is light and gear is heavy. Why is food light? You know, if you start with 20 pounds of food and you end with no food, then [00:36:00] food weighed on average, 10 pounds. You know what I mean? You know, 'cause you started with 20 and you end it with zero. So the average is 10.

On the other hand that, 10 pounds of camping gear, you know, the tent and the sleeping bag and all that stuff. It weighed 10 pounds at the start. And it might even weigh more at the end if you got it all wet. But that is heavy, you know what I

Paddy: yeah. Yeah.

Roman: So that's like a real simple version of where like it's helpful to be quantitative.

I don't want to really use the word math so much as maybe just. Quantitative. What I've learned with boating is I only need one pound of food a day while I'm rafting. ' cause river's moving me, I'm just sitting there just like when you're alpine climbing, you spend half your time holding the rope.

Here I'm just spending, you know, I'm just sitting there in the boat. But when I'm hiking, you know, all of that, motion requires my energy and my energy comes from my food. So I usually plan on two pounds of food a day while I'm hiking, and one pound of food a day while I'm rafting.

So if I work out, all the distances and time, then I can more precisely figure out how much food, like I don't do, um, day bags of [00:37:00] food, you know, like I don't have like, oh, here's my Monday bag, here's my Tuesday bag. Or some people I've seen like have, you know, like seal a meals with the dates written on 'em.

And,

and the reality of it is, is like if it's a cold and rainy day, I'm going to eat a lot more than if it's a hot and sunny day, you know? And if it's a hot and sunny day, I want to eat chips. And if it's a cold and rainy day, I want to eat chocolate. So I don't want to have a chocolate bar and a bag of chips in every food bag.

I want to have a big bag of chocolate bars and a big bag of chips so I can pick what I want for the day.

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As far as teaching goes, when I taught math classes, I could really get people's attention 'cause a lot of the kids that I taught. At the school I taught at Alaska Pacific University. I taught there for like over 30 years.

They were a lot of outdoor kids. Like they had an outdoor studies program. Some kids were double majors in environmental science and outdoor studies. So sometimes I'd get 'em in like, my calculus class. And calculus is notoriously sort of, um, what the heck? Why, why would I ever do this? Or when would you ever need this?

So if if I cast it as this problem, you know, like how far [00:38:00] would we go if, every day, our packs got lighter by two pounds and so I could, very definitely turn, what were sort of esoteric concepts into like real life problems that they could relate to.

And I, I did that in calculus and statistics and ecology. All the classes I taught, I tried to include my, experiences in the outdoors. 'cause I knew the kids could relate to that. Who, you know, who are also into the outdoors

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Paddy: In Arctic alchemy, you're going out and doing this expedition with students figuring out this melting permafrost is releasing heavy metals into watersheds across the Alaskan Arctic. And you're among those who are raising the alarm And you're raising the alarm about a place that you have been in love with for 50 years. And so there has to be some sense of, yes, I, I'm scratching the itch of collecting data. I'm scratching the itch of doing the sporting cornucopia that I love, but also I feel a responsibility to protect [00:39:00] this place that has given me so much in my life.

Is that how you're feeling? Even though you're, you know, retired from academia, you're like, well, I still have a responsibility to give back to this landscape that has given me so much.

Roman: Oh, for sure. Because you can look in the past and see where other people have recorded information about the places that they value and experience and love as well, and that's super valuable data to have from the past. So Absolutely. Like, uh, one of the things that's really, somewhat upsetting to me is this, Ambler road that they want to build, in the southwestern part of the Brooks Range.

you know, like back. In the seventies, you know, that's when the pipeline cut across the Brooks Range. And up until that point, the Brooks Range had no roads across it. and there's no roads kind of paralleling the Brooks Range and this Ambler road would be the first one. and it just kind of, really diminishes the value of these big landscapes.

'cause roads cut them up. and so anything that we can do to help encourage, um, the preservation of this really big landscape, anything that we can do is, is [00:40:00] valuable from my perspective, because like there's very few really large, wild places left. and those places really should be set aside.

That should be the big conservation drive for the 21st century is to find these last really large areas. And preserve them as they are. And the Brooks Range is one of those, you know, the Northern Alaska is one of those. Because once a road goes in, it's kinda like pulling the thread of a sweater.

It starts to unravel the wilderness unravels.

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Paddy: in regard to your decades in academia, your decades in often oddball, often exceptionally rugged adventuring, is there one thing that drives you? Is there one question that you continue to ask

Roman: i'm always wondering why, I do this and what, what it is that satisfies me. I, I don't think I thought so much about why when I was a kid, and sometimes I feel like I, Paddy, I feel like I really haven't grown up, you know, I'm still that kid who just needs to be out there and, [00:41:00] and maybe I wonder why that is, and I wonder like, you know, will I ever kind of grow up?

I think that one question that I would ask myself is. What can I do this year that my body and my mind will still allow me to do? I And so that would be the one question, what can I do this year that will be satisfying?

Paddy: Something that is really cool to me about your decades of adventuring is that you are not a solo adventure guy. You say that actually that has never appealed to you at all. And you know, I believe that the difference very often between comedy and tragedy is community perspective.

I think it's true in all things, but it's very easy to see outside. Take something like a ridgeline traverse, right When the rain turns to grapple and it's ripping across your face and you feel these tiny, icy spears getting shoved into your grill and then the fog sets in and you can't see.

And the windward side of you is just like freezing and it's painful and everything just kind of sucks. Now this experience is [00:42:00] vastly different when you're by yourself, as compared to when you're with some pals, especially pals, that you're really close with. I truly believe that when things suck in community, they become pretty funny and not as heavy. Is that the thing for you? This group trip mentality, is it more joy filled when you have people around you in objectively crappy experiences?

Roman: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, it takes the edge off of it, right? Like when you can laugh, it let somehow it lead rather than cry to get the tension out that you laugh and you, and you can get some of

Paddy: kind of dulls the sharp edges of it, you know, whatever the experience is, you know, whether it's a outside thing or an indoor thing. .

Roman: Yep. And then I also feel that, on the opposite end of that spectrum, the joy is so much more pleasurable when you can share it with somebody. You know, for me, like if it's a, good travel or a beautiful view or, an amazing wildlife encounter, I much prefer to share that with somebody than just to have to internalize it on my own.

Paddy: Do you think then that this is both the [00:43:00] secret to great fun and enjoyment outside and to the meaning of life for you

Roman: oh, for sure. Absolutely. I, I feel like, doing things with, especially with people that I enjoy being with and in places that I, I find to be challenging that, that is the most, kind of rewarding activity for me.

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

Paddy: it is now time for the final ramble. One piece of gear you can't live without.

Roman: It'd be a toss up between a bicycle and a pack raft,

Paddy: i'm kind of surprised that you don't have like a combination of the two.

Roman: you know, at one, I have a photo on my wall. Um.

Paddy: Do you, did you do it? Did you combine the

Roman: yeah, one time when we were, we were, we were riding our fat bikes across the lost coast of Alaska. The Gulf of Alaska. we had to cross at low tide, all these little like, tid ponds or whatever.

And so my raft was inflated on my pack, and I'd flip the boat onto into the water and then just plop the bike on the boat.

that's the closest I've been able to come.

Paddy: I'm, well, I'm, I'm [00:44:00] surprised that you haven't, like, figured out, you know, like the front tire, the rudder, but then you can paddle, with like the back tire and like you just like, you know, kind of inflates on the handlebar. Maybe that's next week

Roman: Yeah. Or, or the next generation. Yeah.

Paddy: Best outdoor snack,

Roman: Well if it's hot, I like Dorito chips if it's cold, I like Cadbury bars, milk chocolate with almonds.

Paddy: Oh, nice. I like it. Weather dependent. Snackage. I'm into it. What is your hottest outdoor hot take?

Roman: When you come to Alaska and you're, traveling in bear country, like grizzly bear country, sleep on your food.

Paddy: Really

Roman: yep. If you're out in the wilderness and you lose your food to a bear, you know, what are you gonna do? And, and also when you're in the wilderness on a long trip, you can't necessarily carry a big. bear Barrel and maybe you have an ur sac and if you tie your ur sac out there, the bear would just chew it up or drag it away.

You know what a bear does with its big pile of food? Like if it has a, a moose kill or a caribou kill, do you know what [00:45:00] they do with it? They sleep on it. They lay right down on top of it to make sure that nobody takes it from 'em.

Paddy: Yeah, but that's a bear. You know, especially a grizzly bear. I feel like if I was sleeping on top of, my food in the back country in Alaska and a bear came up, I feel like the bear would be like, oh look, an Irish stuffed pepper. I kind of feel like you're telling people to walk around as like a pinata for a bear

Roman: well, you know, I know. Well, it, that's, what'd you call it? A hot take,

Paddy: a hot, this is a hot take. This is very spicy. Okay.

Roman: very spicy. Yeah. You know, it's a food bag is a good pillow. and, and then,

Paddy: is a delightful pillow. Okay.

Roman: but then I, I often will have like a rifle with me too, like, or a shotgun. So.

Paddy: Sleep on your food. Bring a gun. I got you Roman.

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

PADDYO VO:

Roman Dial is an everything-ist. He is credited with helping invent not [00:46:00] just packrafting as a means of travel, but pack rafts themselves. Roman also came up with canopy treking, hell biking, and generally is just an incredibly impressive outdoor dude. He also spent 30 years in academia. You can watch his fascinating combination of brains and braun in the new documentary film Arctic Alchemy. It's on the festival tour right now, so you can find a screening near you and learn more about the film at Arctic Alchemy Film Dot Com. Aaaand the film is also a part of this year's LA Times Short Docs series, so you can watch it right now by visiting LA Times Dot Com Slash Short Docs. Follow Roman's advenures, and check out a ton of old photos and extensive trip accounts, on Instagram at Dial Roman.

 Also, have you ever been listening to this podcast and thought, "I really wish I could see PaddyO's mouth [00:47:00] athleticism, rather than only listening to his face biceps." Well, you're in luck.  We are now on YouTube. Check out video episodes of the podcast and take a gander at why I've been told I have a face for radio. Just search The Outside Podcast on YouTube.

And, remember that we want to hear from you. Sooo, email your pod reactions, guest nominations, your blueprints for a bike that is a raft that is a ski that is a bottle opener, and whatever else you want to tell and/or ask us to Outside Podcast At Outside Inc Dot Com.

The Outside Podcast is hosted and produced by me, Paddy O'Connell. But you can call me PaddyO. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard, Micah "YouTube is my co-pilot" Abrams. Music and Sound Design by Robbie Carver. And booking and research by Maren Larsen.

The Outside Podcast is made [00:48:00] possible by our Outside Plus members. Learn about all the extra rad benefits and become a member yourself at Outside Online Dot Com Slash Pod Plus.