LIVE! Selema Masekela, Mike de la Rocha, Douglas Miles, and James Andrews on Love and Masculinity

Sierra Shafer: [00:00:00] All right. Hello everyone, and welcome. Uh, my name is Sierra Schaeffer. I'm the editorial director of Lifestyle Outside there are so many incredible speakers this weekend, but this one I think has such far reaching implications and is so important. Um. This is going to take a really honest look at masculinity today and how exploring in the outdoors can help break down some of the outdated stereotypes that we've all experienced, um, by creating space for men and finding strength in vulnerability, connection, and community.

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Howdy, pals! We have an extra special treat for your ears, your head, and your heart today: A touching and deeply honest panel at the Ideas Progroam from last year's Outside Festival, which is now called Outside Days. Today, you're gonna hear a  heartfelt conversation that brings together cultural icons and changemakers - action sports legend,Selema Masekela,  artist and author Mike de la Rocha, artist and founder of Apache Skateboards, [00:01:00] Douglas Miles, and moderator,  cultural strategist and storyteller, James Andrews - to explore how nature and community are helping a new generation of men redefine strength on their own terms.

In a world where traditional definitions of masculinity are being dismantled and rebuilt, the natural world offers a unique path toward emotional liberation, connection, and strength—as you'll hear from these four men, all of whom credit their time outdoors with helping them make sense of sometimes messy, complicated lives. And I for one am psyched about it. I hope you are too. Enjoy the chat!

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to help kick things off, please welcome to the stage outside's editorial director, Kevin Sintumong.

Kevin Sintumuang: Thanks, Sierra. Hey everybody. so yeah, I'm the editorial director of Outside Magazine. So when we were putting together, , the latest outside, which I see, , around the [00:02:00] room here, , I really wanted to explore, , stuff outside of traditional adventure and adrenaline. I wanted to explore the outdoors, , and sort of unpack how.

, They could heal us and inspire us. So when I learned about this session, I was super excited because, well, you know, I'm a man and like most men, I have trouble saying, uh, those three words up there, uh, especially to my dad. Um, I love you. Right. and I'll start off with a little story about my dad,

so that's us in, uh, Thailand and I'm in third grade. Uh, his name's Sam. but flashback to 2022, um, I get a call from him. Uh, he was in the hospital, uh, he had fallen down the stairs. it turned out he had broken his back and he was going into a spinal fusion surgery that was gonna last approximately 10 hours.

It was a short call. He told me, take care of my mom. I told him, uh, you're, you're a tough dude. I didn't say, dude. I [00:03:00] used, uh, another word, uh, that I'll keep it family, family here, uh, and I'll see you on the other side. And I wanted to say so much more. Uh, but I couldn't. I just, it just didn't, it just didn't come out.

Those, those words didn't come out. And immediately when I hung up, I felt the need to run. I felt the need to move my body, um, but not, not just move anywhere, not just run anywhere. I decided to go to all the spots. I grew up in New Jersey. We would go into Manhattan all the time. I live in Brooklyn. I decided to go to all the spots in Manhattan that were important to us.

So I went to the first place where I had dim sum. I went to the souvenir store where he let me buy, uh, Chinese stars. Which is a terrible thing to let a kid buy. Do not do that. Um, I went to, uh, his first restaurant, um, that was down by Wall Street, a little deli, and this was just my way of sending him [00:04:00] love, telling him I loved him, even though I couldn't find those words.

Um, later that day, he called me, uh, he was out and, um, I told him I love him then, of course, and now I tell him I love him all the time because I've done plenty of running, plenty of therapy. Um, and so, you know, and it's, this isn't, it's, it's not, um, it's not just me. There are many men across the country that are discovering how healing, uh, nature can be, how transformative it can be.

Um, when it comes to. Masculinity and being vulnerable. Um, and I'm so excited that this panel is going to unpack that for us today. Um, I'm gonna introduce him so they can just come out here and, and get to it. first we Salema Masekela, he's a fixture in the world of outdoor action sports.

A veteran journalists best known as the voice of the X Games. He's also a multi-talented Emmy nominated producer [00:05:00] whose influence extends to work in acting, fashion, music, and non-profit social initiatives. Notably, as the co-founder of Stoked Mentoring an organization that empowers youth to reach their fullest potential.

 Mike de la Rocha, is the co-founder of Revolve Impact, a globally recognized creative agency that merges art. Activism and storytelling to drive social change also, um, he's the founder of Tepito Coffee, a company dedicated to providing meaningful jobs for formerly incarcerated individuals through its partnership with Homeboy Industries.

Next, Douglas Miles is an Apache artist, poet, and the founder of Apache Skateboards. He was born and raised in Phoenix and is currently living on the San Carlos Apache Reservation Indian Reservation. He developed Apache Skateboards as a community program that's ex has [00:06:00] expanded from skateboarding to include arts, education, and empowerment.

And of course, last but not least is our moderator. James

Andrews a cultural strategist, entrepreneur and storyteller working at the intersection of music, technology, venture capital, and social impact. With a career spanning Columbia Records, Warner Music Group and Echo Unlimited. He has played a pivotal role in shaping the marketing and cultural narratives for legendary artists like the Fujis, Lauryn Hill and Nas.

Please welcome our panel Salema, Mike, Doug, and James.

James Andrews: How's it going? Good. Good, good. Excited to be here. Doug is the one I know, uh, the least. But I feel like we walked here from the hotel and I feel like we went deep, super fast. So, um, [00:07:00] Mike is probably the one I've known the longest. even though you, you could know a man and walk by a man, you know, there's so much that I learned in the last 12 hours, Salema second longest, a fixture on my trips to Air Juan and Venice.

And, um, and, um, I love him. We've, we've, we've shared a lot. I watched his, you know, what he, what he did for the sport and, uh, was always a fan and, and proud to call him friend. I love all you guys and I, I truly mean that. Um, I'm someone who's not afraid to say, I love you to another man. It's not something that I'm scared of.

I come to this, um, this ability, I think because I've confronted a lot of, um. Of the, the, the tropes of manhood, you know, um, the way that we as men grew up and the models in which we saw men that were supposed to be manly men. I feel like I've spent the last, I don't know, decade, but certainly the last five years with deep intensity confronting that, [00:08:00] challenging that, um, challenging myself.

Uh, and so I come to this as your moderator, uh, having spent a lot of time in, uh, attunement with both myself and with others. So I hope that you feel this attunement, uh, which I DJ'ed last night. Thank you for coming. Um, being a DJ actually also helps me be in attunement. I was explaining there's like a, a way in which you, you kind of, um.

Read the dance floor. I, I always say I, I, I DJ for hips Not Tips. And so, because I am literally watching, you know, I don't have a set playlist, I'm just like, oh, you know what? That person probably liked that Justin Bieber record. Oh, that person probably like, well, no, this Hector Lavo mask, you know, or like, and so I feel like attunement isn't really important and um, I feel like it's something that I learned.

So those are the ground rules for today's conversation is, um, you know, let's have a good time. Wow. This is gonna be good guys. Okay. [00:09:00] So we're four men from different walks of life, um, different corners of culture.

Um, today we're not here to prove anything. We're here to share, to talk about the places where our lives meet, culture, identity, manhood, and how, uh, those parts of us evolve as we do. Um, so I'm gonna start, uh, with Solema. Actually, I know this is kind of odd, but I just wanna start with Salema because I'm looking at him.

Um, Salema you taught me so much, uh, about understanding surf culture on the continent when, when we first met and you've moved between, you know, so many worlds, African, Haitian surf culture, uh, music. Where do those worlds meet inside, inside you today?

Selema Masekela: That's an interesting question, man. You really came with the boomerang off the bat.

Um, firstly, thank you everybody for, for, for coming and joining us today for this conversation. [00:10:00] You are just as smart, just as much a part of, of the energy, uh, being circular as what we have going on on this stage. So. Thank you for the vibes. Um, you know, music is my first love. I grew up with a father who is, uh, who was an, an incredible musician, a trumpeter, a freedom fighter from South Africa, um, who was an exile from apartheid.

So my earliest memories of music, or my earliest memories with my father was being in the club at five years old. You know, being at ml's, being at the village gate with my dad when he had me on the weekends. Don't tell your mom that you stayed for the late set till three in the morning. Yeah. Um, and hanging out and, and bathing in the magic of music.

Yeah. And then when my mother and stepfather moved to Southern California from, from the east coast to a small town called Carlsbad, it was a much different scene. Yeah. [00:11:00] But the rhythm and the music that the kids moved to was different. And there was an ex artistic expression that was taking place in skateboarding and, and this thing called surfing.

Yeah. And the first time that I stood on a wave changed my life. Like it was a rhythm. It became, it became my music. And so those things sort of intersected and really helped to shape me into the man that I get to be today. I, I think if I had grown up in a, in a singular vertical space, like you said it before, you know, at the outset I had a, my, my, my mother came from Haiti as a child fleeing a country.

My, my father came from South Africa, you know, grew up in, in New York. But that gave me the, you know, being raised in music and, and, and the arts and, and all of that, like conflict drip gave me the ability to dance in whatever space that I was put in. And so I think that's. [00:12:00] How I still operate today is, um, as, as a result of that mix.

Yeah,

James Andrews: I think when I think about the four of us, I think about that ability to move in and around different circles like we, we were talking about earlier, like, you know, like I can go to the favela in Brazil and like not be scared that like there could be a gun there because of the way I grew up. Like I'm not, you know what I mean?

Like, I, I grew up, you know, having to use my attunement, use my hood spiny sense to move around. And when I think about like the worlds in which we move in, it requires, um, you know, understanding the language, the culture or the nuance even if you don't speak the language. Um, is that something that I'll ask you, Mike?

Is that something that, that ability to kind of bob and weave and move around different cultures, is that, has that been something that's important? How. Sort of the background and, and how you grew up. How's that, how has that shaped [00:13:00] that for you?

Mike de la Rocha: Yeah. Well first I just want to say I'm so honored to be on the stage who, for three men that I consider, um, thought leaders, but icons in this space of one.

I just wanna say I love you, man. Just like I said, love you too. Um, so I'm the oldest of two. I was born in Oxnard, California, which is a farm working community. Um, my father immigrated from Chihuahua, Mexico when he was seven. My mom's a second generation Chicano from San Jose. Um, I, the first language I ever spoke was Spanish.

So I didn't know English until I went into a school. Uh, I grew up in Ventura. Um, at the time, in the eighties, it was a predominantly white community. I'm white passing, but it was very difficult 'cause I didn't speak the language. Yeah, I learned really early how to code switch 'cause I had no other choice but to do that.

But like the men up here, the things that saved my life, like in this order probably was. Punk music, skateboarding and surfing.

Yeah.

Um, because there were waves in [00:14:00] Oxnard and in Ventura. Yeah. And I was always felt like an outsider. So being a misfit allowed me to feel compassion for those that were on the outside.

James Andrews: Yeah.

Mike de la Rocha: But also allowed me to like navigate different worlds.

James Andrews: Yeah.

Well, you know,

we have some prop, we have some props for this, this conversation today. And those props include, uh, photos that we've kind of put together. So as I hope at the end of this, you get to know us more intimately. I'll start with mine.

Does that work? Yeah. Okay. Let's see. I don't even know what's up here. Let's see. Ah, look at that. Okay. So, um, yes. I, I, I, uh, I ran the Echo brand for, for a long time ago. I was the Chief marketing officer at one point, but what I loved about Echo is they made you put your baby card on there, which was kind of cool because, you know, it's cool.

So what does this picture say to me? This is a, um, there's a, there's probably a free Huey Newton, uh, patch on the side. Um, this is little James, uh, San Jose on his way to Oakland. Um, uh, he is, uh, [00:15:00] the, the sole grandson, uh, in the family. You'll see more of my family members shortly. Um, and he is, it's 1971.

1972. And, um, you know, my, my father was at San Jose State and my mother, um, was at Santa Clara, and they were deeply involved in, uh, movements in, in, in sort of, uh, as a mixed couple. Uh, my mom was like a super. Uh, interesting woman who just really, uh, taught me so much about, um, uh, owning my identity. Um, and I think that's something that is, you know, as, as a, as a kid of, of diverse ethnic backgrounds in, in growing up in the seventies, I'm really grateful that my mother really taught me.

You know, I, I was in Swahili school, I was in like, really, you know, interesting, conscious programs. But, um, this jacket reminds me of that moment, of that time period in the early seventies. And, uh, [00:16:00] yeah, I'm grateful for, for the independent spirit that I, that I had as a latchkey kid. Shout out to my latchkey kids in the audience, um, as a latchkey kid, you know, the ability to kind of, to kind of, uh, maneuver and, and, and shape my identity, uh, and also stay safe.

Um. Staying safe. This is actually a perfect segue. How about that safety is, is important, right? Um, but your, your life is really a dance, mike, between, um, fighting for justice and fighting to stay soft, how do you hold both?

Mike de la Rocha: Um, I think I've been trying to deconstruct this idea that strength, how do I put this?

Redefine strength as vulnerability.

James Andrews: Mm-hmm.

Mike de la Rocha: And, and try to find the ways that, the thing that scares me the most is actually to be the most open with folks, whether they're strangers or whether they're loved ones in the audience. And I think for me, the, the, the greatest freedom fighters, whether they're musicians or [00:17:00] actual revolutionaries, they have always been guided by a strong sense of love and compassion.

We may like change or manipulate it, but at the end of the day, like we are all connected in such divine connected ways. Yeah. That. Um, the most vulnerable thing I could do is actually just be honest with people because in doing that, then hopefully they'll be honest back and we'll see our shared humanity with each other.

Totally.

So that's kind of like the guiding North star. Yeah.

That's crazy. 'cause Doug and I were talking about that before we, we went on stage. It's like, it dunno if you guys have the same experience. I see myself, I see myself in sem, I see myself in you. Like, there's parts of each of you that like, remind me of me.

And I think that's the, that's what I try to bring as a man. Like, Hey, look, you know what, like, I know like SEM and I have talked about so many things, relationships to all kinds of things. And like we, I can see where he and I have alignment. And I think that's like, I feel like that's part of this radical transparency that we as men get to, to get to have is to, is to see each other.

Is to see, you know, Doug is the newest one I see. That's my new homeboy right there. Um, [00:18:00] and I really loved our conversation. I really loved where we saw each other walking here. Um, um, and if you wouldn't mind, um. G give a little context that maybe the bio didn't hit about who you are.

Douglas Miles: Well, my name is Douglas Miles, and I'm St.

Carlos Apache and I live in Arizona. I grew up in Phoenix, but uh, all my kids were raised in St. Carlos on the res. And I remember skateboarding when I was a kid. I won't tell you, uh, what the popular song was, but let's just say at that time, Curtis Mayfield was at the top of the charts. But if you know who Curtis Mayfield is, props to you.

But then if you do the math, then you know how old I am.

But I always tell kids nowadays, back in my day, we didn't have the internet. We had Rick James.

Mike de la Rocha: That's quotable.

Douglas Miles: Why is that important? Because when you watch Rick James, you see like a whole world unfolding [00:19:00] right before your eyes. You have never seen anything like that. You've never heard anybody say that.

Sing that way, right? And so I always tell kids like, we had Rick James, but we didn't have the internet. Well, only Rick James fans will know what I'm talking about. Uh, however. So growing up in Phoenix, so you learn a lot about, uh, a lot, about a lot of things. And I had a big family. I had like five brothers.

I had six sisters. Almost everybody was older than me. So you grow up like idolizing your older brothers and sisters. So fast forward to now, you know, as I had kids, uh, I got the idea for Apache Skateboards from my son. 'cause when I watched my son's skateboard, I remembered like, oh, that was fun. I remember I did that when I was 12 and 13.

And I would go with my friend Steve, who was from California, and I said, Steve, where are you from? He goes, we're from California. We just moved here. And I said, what's that? And can I, can I play with it? And it was a skateboard. And then he, and then I told my mom, Steve has this cool [00:20:00] thing. Can you get me one?

And she said, yeah. And it had clay wheels. Wow. Um, but then we would go to seven 11, buy Slurpees and skate magazines and sit behind, you know, look at the stuff. But then fast forward when Doug started skateboarding, uh, this inspired me 'cause I was already selling art and making art, but I lived on the res and I did not have like a, a good job.

And my wife at that time, we didn't have a good job. So I used art as supplemental income, but I was really inspired by Doug. 'cause I would, you know, buy him all the boards. I would buy him all the videos. I would buy him all the Thrasher magazines, the trans worlds. And I would look at all that art and I would think I could do that.

And I'd buy, sometimes I'd buy Juxtapose magazine and I'd be looking at the art in there and I'll be looking at juxtapose and I'd be like, this isn't a gallery. This stuff isn't even good. I'll be, and these guys, how did these guys get in a magazine? And I'll be like, I'm [00:21:00] better than this. For you gotta remember, I live on a reservation in Arizona.

Nobody knows who I am. Yeah. So there's a challenge right there. Plus I'm Native American, plus I'm Brown. Plus all these industries are based, uh, and owned by white people. So how am I gonna break into the industry? Well, guess what? That was 20 years ago just now. I told these guys, now our products are in Zoomies.

Think whatever you want. I don't say whatever you want about Zoomies. Oh, they're this, they're that. When a kid from the reservation gets their first skateboard, they usually go to Zoomies at the mall. Yeah. Remember it's a two hour drive. One way just to get to a Zoomies for a kid, and imagine you're that native kid and you're going to Zoomies and you can get the Apache skateboard.

You're like, wow.

Mike de la Rocha: Yeah,

Douglas Miles: I never seen this.

Mike de la Rocha: Yeah, that's that.

Douglas Miles: But remember, Zumi has 600 stores across the country, not even including [00:22:00] Canada. Imagine you're just a regular kid from the suburbs in New Jersey and you go to Zoomies and you're like, what's that? It's like a Trojan horse. They're learning about Native American culture.

They're learning about Apache culture on the skateboards. But it's a Trojan horse. 'cause it's on a skateboard.

Mike de la Rocha: Yeah.

Douglas Miles: But I kind of just wanna wrap say this 'cause they were talking about fathers here and I realized one day, so I made the skateboard, actually the very first one I made it for Doug Junior.

'cause he said we were at the mall and he said, dad, I need a skateboard. And I, I said, I pull up my wallet. I said, Doug, I don't have I enough money for the name brand board, but I could buy the blank one. And he said, it's okay dad. I just need a board. He's a good kid. But now I, I think to myself, now he's, he's pro, we've been doing it for 20 years.

We do demos, we travel, we do events, we help build skate parks. But I realize now this is something I [00:23:00] did so I could always be with my son.

Mike de la Rocha: Yeah, that's beautiful. Hey, can I see the board? Is there a board close by? Hey, whoa, look at that. Hey,

Douglas Miles: I'm sorry I left it in the back. Sorry.

The first one I did was hand paint it for Doug and then he pa he skated all over the res. And I knew he came back and I said, Doug, what did your friend say? 'cause they're all Apache kids. We're all native kids. And he said, dad, everybody wants one. And that's when I got the idea for Apache Skateboards. I was like, I can't paint a board for every kid on the res.

So I had to figure out like, where do I go? I gotta find a factory. And remember 20 years ago there was something called dial up internet.

Mike de la Rocha: Yeah.

Douglas Miles: You had to wait forever just to upload a photo. Right. So I don't know if that's. It took forever. And we ended up going to a factory in, [00:24:00] uh, somewhere in Orange County in California and printed our first a hundred.

But, you know, we also did a, we also have a shoe coming out, skate shoe with Etnies. Anybody remember Etnies? Um, I like working with brands like Etnies 'cause I feel it's like a legacy brand. It's a core brand. Yeah. And no other brands really asked, asked us, so I was like, well, we'll work with them. And it's the same thing with Zoomies, like they asked us.

Yeah. 'cause people say, how'd you get in Zoomies? How'd you get in Zoomies? Thinking that I'm gonna get 'em in Zoomies. I don't even know how I got in Zumi, but we just kept doing stuff and making stuff and traveling and skating and doing events and putting it on social media and taking pictures. And if you follow Apache skateboards on Instagram, you can see everything I'm talking about.

Yeah. You can read the hot takes, you can uh, I always tell people I'm way cooler in real life than on the internet.

Mike de la Rocha: Yeah, that's,

Douglas Miles: but uh, follow us and if you get a chance, go buy this stuff at Zumi. Absolutely. Because you're [00:25:00] supporting our community when you do.

Mike de la Rocha: And that's true. You are much cooler than the, the internet research I had to do to prepare for this.

You're like, way cooler. Um, so I, so there's, there's gonna be a photo gallery of like all of us and all of our families. So what's interesting is, um, I am a father of 28-year-old and 22-year-old. Um, I am a son, obviously I'm a brother. I, but I actually, I'm gonna show you photos of people that were in important in my life.

My father is not on here, my father was not around. Uh, my father left when I was, uh, somewhere around five. I didn't know my, my father, I actually had this moment, um, where I had a dream that he died and then I went on this super crazy rabbit hole and like, and ancestry.com and I found his tombstone within like.

Two minutes. Wow. Um, and then I found my entire family, um, my Bahamian family. Um, my family is, uh, as I said, mixed heritage. That's my [00:26:00] mother. I mean, my grandmother who came from, uh, Italy, from Esta the top of the boot, uh, spoke, no English, only Italian, moved to a small town called Santa Maria, California.

Anybody know where Santa Maria is? It's very small. Um, and, uh, you know, it's a very white town. Like I was the only little black boy that was definitely coming to Santa Maria in 1970, whatever ish. Um, and I remember somebody called me the N word and my grandmother like chased him down the street in full Italian, like, I'll fuck you up.

Um, so yeah, my, my grandmother loved me. Uh, I had obnoxious presents during Christmas. We celebrated Italian Christmas, which means we open presents at night and call the old country. Um, and, uh, very proud of my Italian heritage. And, uh. Uh, my grandfather was a German Jew, and so very, uh, very, very mixed, uh, collective here.

Um, this is the aforementioned grandfather. It's funny 'cause I, we kind of look, he looks like a white man version of me, like we're the same guy, right? Um, but yeah. Um, so he was a [00:27:00] German who went to Italy and then came to this country and fought for the US Army. Um, he spoke many languages. He was an intelligence officer and he landed in Santa Maria and became an accountant.

And he was a Rotarian and he was, you know, he was all the things and, um. You know, he changed his last name from like this longer Polish name to a more me American name. So my family kind of like, my mom didn't speak Italian to me growing up. Um, and we very much, they very much adapted and became Americans.

Um, but yeah, this is my grandfather, um, great guy. And, um, this is, this is me kind of coming up, uh, in uh, my first, what I call the Harvard Business School of my Career, which was the music business. I worked at Sony Music and, uh, made people famous before the internet. Um, and, uh, this is NA's 23rd birthday party or something.

And, uh, this was, you know, really interesting because in, in New York City, which is where I worked in the music [00:28:00] business, you know, I learned so much, you know, sort of not having a father creating brotherhood, creating community, which is what I still create. I'm a community builder, community creator, but like the music industry and the people who worked in youth culture marketing, so like.

Fashion, music, sports. We were a community. We were, we were a tribe. So I would go to New York City and go to, I won't even say his name's restaurant 'cause he's in a trial right now. Um, but I would go to his restaurant and like, that was like my social media. It'd be like, you know, a brand over here, brand.

That's how I met Mark Echo actually. Mark Echo was a reader of my newsletter. And, um, but New York City and, and, and the entertainment industry provided like a, it was like a fraternity. Um, and in that, and we kind of talked about this earlier, like, you know, when you, when when you're raised, when you have other men that you're in, in community with, um, there's some positive things and there's also some things that I think I'm having to decode.

I was having this conversation with my. My [00:29:00] lady on my zoom date before I came here had a zoom date. How you keep these things alive? Show off. Hey,

Selema Masekela: lemme show y'all just how sensitive I am. I was on a zoom date with my lady before the panel zoom

Mike de la Rocha: date zoom. Date zoom. Dates are key. Zoom dates are key when you're in a long distance relationship.

Um, so we're on this zoom date and I was telling her like, I have to decode things I learned in the music business. And you know, even as a man, we learned these things. We learned about sex from pornography and all these things. I have to like decode the things that I learned about manhood, about, um, what it means to be a man, what it means to, to, to treat, how to treat a woman.

And there's constant like, undoing of images. And I worked in nineties hip hop, right? So like we created all these images for you guys to buy records, right? So we create like these, Hey, we'll give you a car, give you a girl. We'll give, you know, I did my business dealings in strip clubs. Like that's where I got records played, you know, and so.

I find myself having to, to do a little bit. This is [00:30:00] not a question on my, on my little iPhone here. This is just super off the dome top, top of the dome. Um, but like, I wonder like how is that unpacking and then undoing play out for all of you? I'm deeply interested in like, is this a process that you're having to go through?

Maybe who you were growing up and who the world saw you as and all of the notoriety in the, in which the three of you have had, and how is that unpacking and then undoing process going for you?

Selema Masekela: I had a very, very complex upbringing as a man, uh, as a young man. Um, there was a duality in who I was supposed to be coming from both sides of my family. So my father was a hedonist jazz musician.

Who was having the greatest of times, um, you know, his affinity and his love for women. Um, what was probably it was mu women and then music. Yeah. And he was a musician. [00:31:00] Right. So that, that puts it in the context again.

Mike de la Rocha: Overstand.

Selema Masekela: Um, and then on the other side, I was raised, uh, by my mother and stepfather as a devout Jehovah's Witness.

I was the kid who was up on Saturday mornings knocking on your door trying to save your life. Um, I was not allowed at all to have any thoughts about sexuality or women or dating or girls. Um, it was forbidden until marriage. Um, and so when you're growing up as a kid and you're coming up of age, uh, and all your friends are telling you the stories of what they're into, right?

And you're like, I don't even know what that is, but let me pretend. Like I know.

Mike de la Rocha: Exactly.

Selema Masekela: Um, and then I had a father who was more like the homie

Mike de la Rocha: Right.

Selema Masekela: And was like, when are you gonna get your rocks off? You know? Um, interesting. And so it [00:32:00] was, it was, it was weird. I pretended many times growing up, especially in my twenties, to be someone who I was not.

I regret Wow. Uh, those times. Um, but I, to your point, there was a lot of undoing that I had to learn. Yeah. As a result, once I got to the place where I was able to choose my own identity, that meant leaving the church and also for, yeah. Uh, a time seceding from my relationship with my father because of what the things that he was battling with, substance abuse, et et cetera.

Um, there was a toxicity there. Yeah. And so I had to like start from scratch in my late twenties and learn what it meant to come of age when kids were doing that at 17, 18 years of age. Um, and so yeah, a lot of undoing, a lot of learning, a lot of having to learn how to be comfortable with myself and have feelings with myself.

And also [00:33:00] how to like, build relationships with other dudes that felt like they were trustworthy as opposed to having to pretend to be something in order to be cool. Yeah. In your club.

MUSIC FOR A BEAT

PADDYO VO:

More from last year's "I love you, man" Panel from the Outside Days Ideas Progam after the break.

MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL

Mike de la Rocha: Can I, can I take you, take you through some photos and you give me, um,

Selema Masekela: sure.

Mike de la Rocha: The question I want you guys all to think about when you see this is what do you see in this photo? What do you, what do you see in this photo that the world doesn't see and what does it remind you to hold close or let go of today?

So I'm starting with you. Salema.

Selema Masekela: Um, so that's my dad and me. Um, my father wasn't able to be there when I was born 'cause he was on the road at a gig. He was overseas. Um, he tried to get back. He was in [00:34:00] London, but he couldn't get back in time. And so, um, that's him seeing me for the first time after I was born also, I came out with a full ass head of hair

Mike de la Rocha: full.

Selema Masekela: Not a shocker.

Mike de la Rocha: Not a shocker. Can I go to the next one? Next one. Stay on that one.

Selema Masekela: Uh, yeah. Yeah. Um, that's me and my happy place right there. That's, uh, I think four years ago at zeroes, a place that I love to surf. Um, the ocean. The ocean helped me find my identity. In a way that I didn't know that I needed, it was where I could go and abandon any of the other rules of what were put on me, um, and I could find my expression.

And so to this day, it's where I still live and love to play. So I went a little fast. No worries. This is me. Um, and this, I think this is like fifth grade graduation with my tremendously beautiful mother. Beautiful, beautiful. It's my mother, Jesse [00:35:00] Marie LaPierre. Um, she's, she's the shit. Um, my mom was my staunchest defender.

My mom was my protector. Um, she helped to shield me from some really challenging shit at home with my stepfather. And the greatest gift that my mother ever gave me was that despite. My father at his worst, at his most toxic when he, and, and, and that came from pain, as I mentioned before, my father was a political exile who had to flee apartheid when he was 19 years of age and did not see his family for 30 years because of apartheid.

Yeah. He was a homeless man. Didn't take citizenship anywhere. Then he got thrust with all this fame upon him in the late sixties as he, he, he finds his, his, his voice with his trumpet. Um, but he didn't have [00:36:00] the ability to show up and yeah, he would leave me hanging as a kid. Yeah. And the one thing that my mother did, um, that I just remained so grateful to her for is she never talked shit to me about my father.

Yeah. She could have ruined him for me, and she didn't, she would put her foot in his ass privately, but never in front of me. And that gave me the ability as I got older, to be able to find a relationship with him and to meet him where he was at and to love him for who he was. And we were able to have an incredible relationship.

Yeah. And friendship. Um, that was the best thing ever, um, up until he died because he made new choices in his life. Yeah. But if my mom wouldn't have given me that on-ramp Right. And not poisoning [00:37:00] me against him. Yeah. Yeah. When she could have, yeah. Uh, I would have a different life.

Mike de la Rocha: Yep. Yep.

Selema Masekela: Uh, that's me and my old man. That's about, uh, six months before he passed away.

Um, my dad died of prostate cancer in 2018. This was in South Africa, uh, when he was going through treatment. And, uh, he just wanted to laugh the whole time, you know, all the way up until the end. He never, um, he never let the cancer ship take ownership of, of him. And through that time, you know, we got so much closer and, um, yeah.

You know, we had the, that, that picture right there despite all the [00:38:00] other shit that happened in our relationship. Like, that's, that's the theme of my relationship with my father is he and I laughing our asses off and laughing ourselves. Senseless.

Mike de la Rocha: That's beautiful. That's beautiful. It's really meaningful as, as a father and, um.

Someone's going through a divorce and whew. What you said about your mom. Beautiful mom.

Selema Masekela: Um, yeah, man, she's so,

Mike de la Rocha: that's so powerful.

Selema Masekela: And I don't think that women get enough credit. They

Mike de la Rocha: don't

Selema Masekela: for what, you know, they gotta navigate when it comes to their kids and their challenges Yeah. In, in the split of a relationship.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, when I look back at what my, the choices that my mom made with no fucking textbook Right. On how to do it. Yeah. And in the end, you know, they were friends. Yeah. They were cool. You know, my mother grieves him as hard as I do.

James Andrews: Yeah. No textbook, Doug. [00:39:00] I'm gonna tell them my secret in my new relationship, what I did during my zoom date, I used ai.

Yeah. AI tracked my conversation. And I, Mike no, we know, we know this. She and I are in agreement. This is not like, don't get, relax. It's part of our relationship. Um, but many of us don't have instruction manuals, right? So like this idea that you talk about, about your mother not having rule book, um, you know, life doesn't come for many of us with any, with guide.

You talked about how you started your, your, your clothing line. You're like, you know what, I'm at seven 11 eating funions and drinking a Slurpee. I'm gonna like be on this. You know? And like no one told you how to do that, you know? Um,

and

Mike de la Rocha: can, can I just first before you just jump in, I just want to take a moment to honor you so Salema, because, um, you asked me a question earlier about what does strength look like?

Yeah. And, uh, I have a book coming out and it's [00:40:00] so hard for me to even cry publicly. Wow. And this is literally what, like brotherhood but real manhood looks like. And so I don't want to just jump into AI or anything. I want to say thank you for modeling.

James Andrews: Thank you.

That's real manhood right there. I appreciate that. Um,

before we go there, um, and maybe this is actually a perfect segue about your book. What's, what do you want the book to be to represent for men like me, men like Salma men out here?

Mike de la Rocha: Well, since we're talking so much about fathers and sons, and I know we don't have that much time, but, um, so I have a book, it's, um, signing afterwards called Sacred Lessons, teaching My Father How to Love, and there's all these pictures, but only three pictures that, that I would focus on was the first one is the cover of the book is me and my dad out in nature.

And it goes back to [00:41:00] Doug saying like Doug's whole story of like him making a skateboard for the first time. Was for him to be with Doug Jr. I loved going to the outdoors 'cause it was the first, like, the most freest I would ever see my dad. And the lessons that I learned from life was being with my dad out in nature.

That was like the freest. My dad, um, you know, he didn't have cancer and he unexpectedly passed away 10 years ago because he didn't know how to ask for help. He was suffering in silence. Like so many of us men, he didn't have the language to, to express himself to his, his wife, my mom, or to me. And my brother.

My brother, my dad loved me and my brother more than life itself, but his grandfather, Mayo never said, Hey Mimo, hey, I love you. So I can count on my hand less than five times and my dad would say, Hey Michael, I love you. So therefore now I tell my son like every day he gets embarrassed. 'cause I tell him so [00:42:00] much.

'cause all I wanted was just that, even though I knew he loved me. Yeah. So my, my thing is my dad, I, I wanna live longer for my son, but I felt the weight of patriarchy. He took my dad away from me. Mm. Because he was suffering in silence. So therefore, both of us were suffering in silence.

James Andrews: Wow.

Mike de la Rocha: And the, the only other picture that I would show is this one of, uh, my second chosen father, which is Tim Banney, uh, a black South African that actually knew Sima's father.

And I actually, when I went to South Africa, I saw his father perform. But I say this because we think that our definition of manhood or masculinity has to be our father. Yeah. But it's actually a tribe of men. It's a lot of us in my and, and Tim who's on, on the right. I met him when I was 17 at UCLA and he raised my consciousness and taught me this concept of Ubuntu.

I am, because we are, and I literally just wrote a book for really just three things quickly. [00:43:00] One is our, our in the West, in this society, we think that healing is a, is self-care, a individual journey or a solo journey? And so much of this about solo, solo, but healing is a community effort. It's a collective effort.

It's all of us. Like I'm literally healing in real time, sitting next to Salema who's courageous enough to share his emotions. Yeah. The second thing is that the medicine that we all need actually lives within ourselves, within our own DNA and our cultural practices and traditions. Yeah. So the more that we know who we are and where we come from our ancestral lands, the more that we'll be able to be like, Hey.

There's a reason why like even before I came out here, I had bear bear root, which is a, is a root because the indigenous folks of where I come from, they take that for protection but also like to feel good. And then the last thing, and it's so beautiful that we're here in the out outdoors, is that when we heal with each other in a community be out, but outside in nature, it accentuates our [00:44:00] healing.

And that's why I've committed my life to doing all I can to be in community with men in particular because we, we mask, we mask our real emotions through drugs or alcohol or use of porn and or laughter. But at the end of the day, we just want to be held. Yeah. We just wanna be loved. Yeah. And so, yeah. So at the end of the day, my hope is that we can see when we lash out, it's a cry for help.

'cause we don't have the vocabulary or the words to say, I love you.

James Andrews: Yeah. So good. So good. Yeah. Um, one of the greatest things I did in the last few years is, is join a men's group. Um, it was amazing. And then I started a men's group and Wow. Just so much, um, opportunity for men to kind of connect with other men and, and I hope that that spreads.

Um, I'm gonna move through a few, few questions. This is gonna be like for you, Doug. Um, how has grief [00:45:00] shaped your, your creativity?

Douglas Miles: Did you say grief?

Mike de la Rocha: Yeah.

Douglas Miles: Um, I feel like grief is really, it, it's part of the things that might be at the root of my creativity. And I don't know where you came up with this question.

It's, to me it seems kind of odd, but I think it's very real and honest because really when you're talking about Native American people and the history of America, we are still carrying the weight of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of collective genocidal years of grief. That's what we're carrying.

You know, when I went to, to the South Bronx to do a project, my host. He said, man, I listened to you talk and you were saying this whole country was yours. How do you deal with that? This whole country used to be yours. How do you feel about it now? And I said, well, to be honest with you, I said, if I had to think about it all the time, I'll be mad all the time.

But you can't think about it all the time because you have to pay the bills, you have to raise your kids and you have to process that. So that's where the art [00:46:00] comes in. That's where the skateboards come in. That's, I sponsor a skate team of all native kids, men and women. Uh, someone asked me one time, oh, it must be nice.

Your tribe gives you money and you can make skateboards. No, I give me money. I save my money. When I sell a painting, I go buy skateboards and I give them to the kids. Now, I'm not a hero. 'cause sometimes people say, oh, that's nice. You're saving lives of these poor native kids. I'm like, I'm not saving their life.

They're the ones that are skateboarding. They're the ones that, he's the one out there on the surfboard. He's, they're saving their own life. I just make the board and give it to them. But we do, I did talk to my son. He was supposed to be here about it yesterday. I was like, it's not a free for all. If you work for Apache Skateboards, if you're on our team, you gotta show up on time.

You gotta be there on time. I tell 'em, you can't be partying. We're working with kids. And my only other rule was, 'cause we have guys [00:47:00] and girls on the team don't go out with each other and they're like, oh, what? Whatever. I say, I see you guys flirting. I see you flirting with each other. Don't go out with each other.

And they're like, why? And I said, because you could break up three months from now. We gotta do a demo and you're hat each other.

James Andrews: That's right.

Douglas Miles: But I feel that grief, it might be really at the root of the creativity, but Yeah. But so is pride. Yeah. And so is compassion. And so is, uh. This kind of ancestral intellectualism that people think people think like, just because they see some movies about, or TV shows about Native American people.

Like, oh, they know our pain. No, you don't. It's just a movie.

James Andrews: Take me on a little tour. Um, that's you,

Douglas Miles: that's my grandson, baby Ira. Ira was named after Ira Hayes, who was one of the, uh, art Marines that raised [00:48:00] the flag on Iwo Jima in a famous, uh, Pulitzer Prize winning photo. Ira Hayes was Native American, so IRA's named after Ira Hayes because Ira Hayes was friends with my dad.

My dad is World War II veteran, and my dad fought and killed Nazis.

In real life and came home and barely, couldn't even vote. Couldn't even vote when he got home in 1945. Um, that's my artwork on the right side with the 83 Cutlass Supreme. I bought that 83 Cutlass. I looked for one and I finally found one in Fresno, California. That's cold. I drove it from Fresno to Arizona because I had one when I was younger.

So I was like, well, I'm gonna buy the Cutlass. I won it. And that's my skate team. And we're coming back from a demo, but I do pho photographic works. And so what I do is I blend old historical [00:49:00] photos and contemporary photos because what I want people to know is like for, I feel like for Black or Asian or Chicano people, like we don't look at old photos and say, oh, that was a long time ago.

Mm. We look at those photos and say, that's me. Mm-hmm. That's me right now. That's us. Mm-hmm. That's how I feel. That's, but a lot of people will look at these old photos and say, oh, that was a long time ago. And that's just ancient history. Not to native people, I don't think. And not, not to Chicano and black people.

That's us right now. Dope. That's who we are. We know that these ancestors and relatives, they're walking around in us right now. Wow. In our DNA and that's why I love the movie Sin is 'cause that's what he talks about at a film. Absolutely. Absolutely. He's like, this history's walking around in you. Yep. Uh, this is a photo of me holding a photo of my mom and dad.

Uh, this is a photo of my son actually in St. [00:50:00] Carlos. Uh, that's another photo of my grandson, baby Ira. And, um. He's bigger now. This quote says, when you realize the land is forever, you realize you're forever. We are forever. And I remember, uh, I always tell people I'm on my third dad. I remember going to a funeral being 65 years old and everybody around me was crying.

And I remember thinking, why are they crying? I feel like I should cry too. But you're only five and that man in that casket, you don't really know him that well 'cause you're so young. But my stepdad used to say something and he'd say, we'd, he'd take us, uh, out to the White Mountains in Arizona. He'd take us fishing or, which is beautiful, you know, pine forest.

And he'd take us trout fishing. And in the morning, you know, my mom and them would cook, but we, I would stand by the lake with my stepdad. And he turned to me and he said, Doug, I know I [00:51:00] don't go to church. I hardly, I don't go to church. I've never hardly ever been to church. But being out here on this lake and looking at these mountains and all these trees, I feel like I'm in church.

But now I know what he meant. He meant that when I'm out in nature, when I'm out here on the lake, when I'm out here under the trees, when I'm out here, I'm talking to God and God is talking to me. And I could hear him. I could feel him. I could see him, even though I never set foot in a church, I could feel him.

That's what he meant. And really, that's what this whole festival is really about.

Selema Masekela: Amen.

James Andrews: Amen. Amen. Thank you. Thank you.

Um, wow. Okay. We're gonna. Closing reflection. We got five minutes and give you guys each a moment just to think about [00:52:00] this. Um, we talked about fatherhood, we've talked about culture, legacy, you know, about, about the way that we, the ways that we hold each other up as men.

We saw it on stage here. Um, what does this moment teach you about what it really means to say, I love you, man, and before we you answer that question, I wanna give a deep gratitude to Audrey Buchanan for, uh, Audrey. A shout to Audrey, uh, wherever she is. She's wearing white. She looks like she's floating. Uh, somewhere around here, uh, all of us have a really special relationship with Audrey, so this has, uh, come to, come to, to bear because of that.

So, this moment that we've had together, um, what does, what does it teach you about what it really means to say I love you as a man?

Selema Masekela: Um, my best friend and I, I have my best friend, Jason Burke. We've been friends for 30 years. We talk on the phone [00:53:00] every day. Every day. And if, if I call him, he could be on set, I could be on the middle of a job, whatever, like we're first ring, you know, and we talk about the smallest of the things or the biggest of the things.

He can call me and cry. He does. I can call him and cry. We can laugh, but we tell each other that we love each other every day on those phone calls. And we have for two decades. It's the most powerful thing that I have in my life, um, is the ability to be able to have the gift of being able to turn to another man in strength and power and say that I love you.

That I love you. Um, and, and to be able to receive that love. Yeah,

James Andrews: that part, that part right there.

Selema Masekela: I think so much about why a lot of dudes. Find themselves all bound up and don't talk to me about this and that's gay or [00:54:00] whatever is because if they choose to actually, when you choose to actually receive the love, that's what kicks you open.

That's it. Into the rest of who you are and who you need to be. And that might be a bit terrifying. Yeah, absolutely. But when you can learn how to fully and wholly receive love, not just from your family, but especially Yeah. From these dudes that you're with 24 7, you spend more time with these dudes than you do with your girl.

How could you not tell them that you love them and how can you not receive their love? Yeah. I believe that if we as men, really open ourselves up to the beauty and the exchange and the power of what love feels like between us and hold that space for each other. Um, as I sit here in that powerful energy on this stage, um, there's nothing that we can't do to make the collective of what our human experience is, [00:55:00] 10,000 times better, especially in these dark ass weird time machine times.

Yeah. In these United states.

James Andrews: Beautiful. Beautiful. And in your film, which I hope everybody watches this film's, we screening this, is there a screening or something? I, I

Selema Masekela: wish there was a screening of, uh Okay. I didn't know. I don't know of the mountains. It's a of, of short that I directed, um, as part of the Warren Miller 75 film.

Mike de la Rocha: Okay. I watched it. So I felt like you were loving on those two guys in the, in the Yeah.

Z

Selema Masekela: Powell and, um, LJ Enriquez, the two young snowboarders that are the subjects of, of my film. When I was their age, there weren't other kids that looked like me. Yeah. And I didn't have mentors. Um, so. For me, it's the ability to now be in a position for these young kids of color in action sports to be able to, to give them a little bit of guidance, um, and help them to build the community and the [00:56:00] strength in, in what the next chapter of their journey.

Yeah. Looks like that's what I'm here to do.

James Andrews: Yeah. De la Rocha

Mike de la Rocha: Um, I, I just wanna say thank you to, to all the men that showed up. Um, I'm, I'm engaged in this 25 City tour talking about these issues and I just spoke at the LA Times Festival books and two thirds of the people that came to the booth were women by my book for their partners or their sons or brothers.

And the men that did come, they would be wearing dark glasses, but they would be crying underneath 'cause they didn't have the courage yet to just take the glasses off. So, one, I just wanna say thank you to each and every man that's here. The second thing, the third picture I wanted to put up, but I couldn't, was I want to thank my son who's in the audience.

Uh, if I look at him, I will cry. So, but, um, I didn't get permission to put his name up there, so mijo, I love you very much. And the last thing I just wanna say is we have these, these conversations about manhood, masculinity, [00:57:00] similar to race, gender is a construct, so it's really about an energy. And we actually have both feminine and masculine energies.

And so I say that because the people that taught me the most to love is my mom and my wife. And so I just want to say I love you so much, Claudia, because she's, she's the, by far, the biggest person in my life that's checked me when I needed to be checked, but did it in such a way where I didn't run away.

And so to embrace all of the spectrum and all the people in our lives

love it.

Yes.

Douglas Miles: A couple months ago, I saw some weird things pop up on the internet, and one of them was people were saying, um, well, uh, it's a weakness to be empathetic. Empathy is weakness. We don't need empathy. And I was like, where the hell is this coming from? But I'll leave you with this. My mom used to have a saying.

[00:58:00] She'd say, the devil is a liar.

Just go out and love people. Love them as much as you can, and if you can't, reach out and touch them and give them a hug. Send them some money. Send me some money. You can't come to my reservation. Hey, write me a check. I got a bank account because there's, it's like that old song by, um, Grover Washington, Jr.

He said. Find 100 ways. Yeah. And you better think about that, right? That's good. Find 100 ways to what To love. To love. Yeah. Yeah. You got no excuse. Yeah. You got no excuse.

James Andrews: I'll, I'll end. Uh, I'll, I'll end. Uh, thank you. Yes. I, I'll end, um, dedicating my time in this panel to my [00:59:00] best friend, uh, Donny to Bo. He died of COVID.

Um, and, uh, he was my ace. He was the guy that, you know, would probably be like, yo, you were on stage with these three dudes. Like, he probably has researched all of you. Like he literally is a skateboard head. He literally would know you. He would know you. And I dedicate my time here to, uh, to, to my guy, to my ace.

Selema Masekela: Thank you guys.

Sierra Shafer: Can we just give these guys one more big round of applause? That was really, really special. Thank you all so much. We really, really appreciate it.

FADE OUT

Sierra Shafer: MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

PADDYO VO:

You just heard from  action sports legend,Selema Masekela,  artist and author, Mike de la Rocha, artist and founder of Apache Skateboards,Douglas Miles, and  cultural strategist and storyteller, James Andrews, from the "I Love You, Man" Panel at last year's Outside Festival. Fun Fact: the music lineup for [01:00:00] this year's Outside Fest, now called Outside Days, was recently announced, including headliners Death Cabe For Cutie, My Morning Jacket, and Cage The Elephant! I'll tell you what, Friday May 29 through Sunday May 31, you can find me in Denver at Outside Days enjoying music, films, ideas, and fun. Learn more and get your tickets today at outside days dot outside online dot com.

And in other super cool big news.  We are on YouTube. Check out video episodes of the podcast and let my mouth tones pour into your eyeballs. Just search The Outside Podcast on YouTube.

And, remember that we want to hear from you. Sooo, email your pod reactions, guest nominations, why you like me believe corndogs are necessary at Outside Days, and whatever else you want to tell and/or ask us to Outside Podcast At Outside Inc Dot Com.

The Outside Podcast is hosted and [01:01:00] produced by me, Paddy O'Connell. But you can call me PaddyO. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard, Micah “I love you man but I’m not gonna, like, say that on a podcast” Abrams. Music and Sound Design by Robbie Carver. And booking and research by Maren Larsen.

The Outside Podcast is made possible by our Outside Plus members. Learn about all the extra rad benefits and become a member yourself at Outside Online Dot Com Slash Pod Plus.